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The East Dulwich Forum
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messageCPZ: Proposed Controlled Parking in East Dulwich
Posted by dulwichresident01 January 09, 05:06PM

It's recently come to our attention that the council are yet again proposing controlled parking on all the side streets off Lordship Lane.

Whilst fewer cars would be welcome, I have grave concerns for our lovely and unique high street which makes East Dulwich what it is today. Surely this will massively disrupt the trade of all our lovely shops and in turn kill the high street? Imagine Lordship Lane without all it's indpendents...

I for one love the Lane and would hate to see it affected in this way.

(Title changed as there are lots of CPZ discussions going on and we don't need separate ones - Admin)

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Jakido January 09, 08:09PM

Is it possible to limit the time period to discourage commuters leaving vehicles e.g 9am to 10am, but allowing people to still drive and park at other times?

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Mscrawthew January 09, 08:12PM

Whatever time they decide on,car owners will have to pay the same extortionate price for a permit!

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by singalto January 09, 08:15PM

How far up LL would this extend?

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by teetomthomas January 09, 08:47PM

Can you provide a link in order that we can read about the details of these proposals?

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Siduhe January 09, 08:51PM

The consultation isn't live yet but there have been various discussions about it on here including a map of the proposed area on the local Councillor thread - see [www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk]

The longer discussion about it is here [www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk]

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Siduhe January 09, 08:58PM

Jakido Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is it possible to limit the time period to
> discourage commuters leaving vehicles e.g 9am to
> 10am, but allowing people to still drive and park
> at other times?

At the risk of making it look like all I do is post about CPZs - the problem (it seems to me) is that Southwark do implement a 2 hour window only for the CPZ but then allow people to pay by telephone - so no bar to commuter parking if they are willing to pay for the 2 hour window. At least that has been the experience of some roads in the Denmark Hill CPZ. I've said elsewhere I think the time has come where a CPZ feels inevitable as everywhere else around us is controlled parking but if we have one, it needs to work for residents, allow people to visit our local shops and restaurants and not just be a revenue raising exercise or an ideological one in that Southwark think CPZs are the way to discourage car ownership in the borough.

[www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk]

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by bels123 January 09, 11:57PM

Businesses need not fear parking restrictions - they currently exist along a lot of Lordship Lane where customers can park for free for upto 30 mins. Recent evidence shows shoppers who travel by more active methods (eg walk or cycle) actually spend more.

‘The study found that people walking, cycling and using public transport spend the most in their local shops, spending 40 per cent more each month than car drivers.’ [road.cc]

In Southwark’s 2015 high street study on Lordship Lane 22% travelled by car (with the exception of the Walworth Rd the highest % across the borough) yet 90% considered themselves to be local. ‘The picture is one of a local population using the centre because it is convenient and easy to access, but with rather more than expected choosing to use a car to get there and back.’

With the illegal levels of air pollution in the area I’m pleased the council is taking action which will encourage people to consider walking instead of driving.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Zig-Zag January 10, 02:05AM

I imagine the reason they found people spent more when they come to Lordship Lane by foot or public transport rather than by car is because those shopping by car only have a short window of time to shop before they risk a parking ticket!

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by dulwichresident01 January 10, 09:46AM

That’s all OK if people want to buy a few items that they can carry, anything more won’t be possible. In turn making the ease of large supermarkets like Sainsbury’s far more appealing. I also don’t see how a 30 minute window is helpful for anyone wanting to do their shopping...it would definitely stop them from using one of the local cafes or restaurants.

This is very concerning and has been the death of many high streets...let’s not let ours be next!

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rahrahrah January 10, 10:13AM

What evidence is there that commuters are using the side streets off Lordship Lane? I can't believe that people drive to ED from outside the area in order to park up and then get on our 'amazing' public transport services into central London. It is much more likely that those parking here are either working in the area or visiting friends, family or the shops. This idea that only residents should legitimately park in the area is nonsense. The idea that the streets are full of people shunning fast commuter services into the Capital from further out in order to drive part of the way and then take over an hour on a bus from ED, is even more fanciful imo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was january 10, 10:15am by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rahrahrah January 10, 10:25AM

The problem is that there isn't enough room for everyone in a block of flats to have a car, or for many households to have two cars and for people who work in the local shops, schools or other businesses to travel here by car. The answer is better public transport, not putting higher and higher costs on car use. People have little choice but to absorb the extra costs unless we provide adequate alternatives.*

If we had a reliable, tube frequency train service, I suspect many people would give up their cars. If we had better 'last mile' transport such as hire bikes or electric scooters, people would be less likely to keep a car. If we had secure, covered bike parking at Brixton, then people would be less likely to have a car.

If public transport deteriorates and at the same time car use becomes more expensive, people just get poorer.

*cue peeps saying everyone should get on their bike.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by natty01295 January 10, 10:37AM

Not everyone wants to use bikes Some Love there Cars

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rendelharris January 10, 10:49AM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What evidence is there that commuters are using
> the side streets off Lordship Lane? I can't
> believe that people drive to ED from outside the
> area in order to park up and then get on our
> 'amazing' public transport services into central
> London.

I don't know about around Lordship Lane but I can definitely say that in Copleston Road - about equidistant from ED station from the bottom of Lordship Lane where we are - large numbers of commuters come and park up and walk down to the station every morning.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Abe_froeman January 10, 11:11AM

I know of a couple of people from the far south of East Dulwich that drive closer to the station each day to commute.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by TheArtfulDogger January 10, 11:55AM

Consultation opens tomorrow, but well worth reading all the documentation first before making up your minds

Feels like a money making exercise when you see the costs per permit, especially as each household can apply for three

[www.southwark.gov.uk]

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by jimlad48 January 10, 11:56AM

There is a persistent issue with commuters driving in to access London stations - when the Toastrack got its CPZ, the parking uptake dropped overnight. There was a lot of evidence of people driving in from Kent or beyond (source - Council published comments received on consultation by people confirming they did this) to use the streets to park, prior to taking train/bus.

ED is likely to be similar - its hard to imagine though that the shops on Lordship Lane will collapse if a CPZ is put in. How much of their trade is really reliant on people who come solely by car to shop? I suspect probably not much at all. Even if a CPZ goes in, there will still be plenty of 'pay to park' spaces available (as per all other CPZ too).

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by ed_pete January 10, 12:01PM

rendelharris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rahrahrah Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What evidence is there that commuters are using
> > the side streets off Lordship Lane? I can't
> > believe that people drive to ED from outside
> the
> > area in order to park up and then get on our
> > 'amazing' public transport services into
> central
> > London.
>
> I don't know about around Lordship Lane but I can
> definitely say that in Copleston Road - about
> equidistant from ED station from the bottom of
> Lordship Lane where we are - large numbers of
> commuters come and park up and walk down to the
> station every morning.

"Large numbers" would imply that there are lots of empty places for them to park in !

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rendelharris January 10, 12:16PM

ed_pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> "Large numbers" would imply that there are lots of
> empty places for them to park in !

Yes there are, because they tend to pitch up, I assume deliberately, about the time those who drive to work have left and parents are on the school run and take the vacated spaces. What's your point?

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Reg Smeeton January 10, 12:21PM

I've always been resistant to CPZ because of its knock-on impact on non-CPZ areas, and also on people who work locally (eg retail and the primary schools) who may not have easy public transport commutes.

Regarding the proposed cost however, since the charge only applies to car-owners who are generally not among the most deprived members of the community, £125/year, £2.50 a week, doesn't seem extortionate in the grand scheme of things. It costs that much just to park on the street for one hour up on Champion Hill.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Siduhe January 10, 12:28PM

I've met* two people recently who drive in from Kent to the Underhill Road area, park and then get trains from FH or ED which really surprised me.


*met in the sense that they both parked across our drive in the hope that no-one was in the house all day...

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by mrwb January 10, 12:33PM

Southwark have to pay those 44 fat cats on 100k+ a year somehow!

Money from controlled parking spent on transport doesn't then have to come from general budget.

Renting our own streets for profit without returning money to us via council tax should be illegal.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rendelharris January 10, 12:50PM

mrwb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Southwark have to pay those 44 fat cats on 100k+ a
> year somehow!

Urban myth territory: the forty-four employees on £100,000+ figure was put around by the ever-reliable-and-never-cherrypicking Taxpayers' Alliance, extrapolating from the 2014-16 figures. Twenty-five of those £100k "salaries" in fact represented redundancy payments - the "fatcats" were, in fact, being laid off. At the time of that report (don't know the figure now) Southwark in fact had nineteen employees on over £100k. You may well think that's too many, but let's keep to the facts.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by dulwichresident01 January 10, 01:07PM

I don’t think we should start making ‘assumptions’ on how local businesses will be affected without speaking to them first. Several I’ve spoken with are extremely concerned, one even stated that it could affect up to 30% of their trade.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by ed_pete January 10, 01:21PM

@RH, I guess my point is that those that wish to have a CPZ on Copleston Road are asking all car owners on that street to pay for a permit when there are adequate parking spaces at certain times of day.
CPZ's are emotive subject and IMO I think that most people will have already made up their minds based on the impact on themselves. Most people will not be swayed by air quality arguments or care about the knock-on to the neighbouring non-CPZ areas or the affordability for other car owners.
If you regularly experience problems parking near your own property, believe a CPZ will solve this issue and are happy to pay for the permit then I guess you'll be in favour. If, like my household, you don't use your car much during the week (in my case there are usually more spaces at the weekend) then I guess you won't.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by sally buying January 10, 01:26PM

Siduhe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jakido Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is it possible to limit the time period to
> > discourage commuters leaving vehicles e.g 9am
> to
> > 10am, but allowing people to still drive and
> park
> > at other times?
>
> At the risk of making it look like all I do is
> post about CPZs - the problem (it seems to me) is
> that Southwark do implement a 2 hour window only
> for the CPZ but then allow people to pay by
> telephone - so no bar to commuter parking if they
> are willing to pay for the 2 hour window. At
> least that has been the experience of some roads
> in the Denmark Hill CPZ. I've said elsewhere I
> think the time has come where a CPZ feels
> inevitable as everywhere else around us is
> controlled parking but if we have one, it needs to
> work for residents, allow people to visit our
> local shops and restaurants and not just be a
> revenue raising exercise or an ideological one in
> that Southwark think CPZs are the way to
> discourage car ownership in the borough.
>
> [www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk]
> ,1989466,1992981#msg-1992981

This is Southwarks view on CPZ'S

The council is actively supporting car clubs as an alternative to car ownership, every car club vehicle removes the need for our residents to own a car or own a second car. Zip Car and DriveNow have a contract with Southwark Council and they have purchased virtual permits for their vehicle fleet which allows them to park in any permitted parking bay in Southwark.
Kind regards
Joanna Redshaw

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rendelharris January 10, 01:42PM

ed_pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @RH, I guess my point is that those that wish to
> have a CPZ on Copleston Road are asking all car
> owners on that street to pay for a permit when
> there are adequate parking spaces at certain times
> of day.
> CPZ's are emotive subject and IMO I think that
> most people will have already made up their minds
> based on the impact on themselves. Most people
> will not be swayed by air quality arguments or
> care about the knock-on to the neighbouring
> non-CPZ areas or the affordability for other car
> owners.
> If you regularly experience problems parking near
> your own property, believe a CPZ will solve this
> issue and are happy to pay for the permit then I
> guess you'll be in favour. If, like my household,
> you don't use your car much during the week (in my
> case there are usually more spaces at the weekend)
> then I guess you won't.

There are adequate parking spaces for a few minutes around 8.30! Looking up and down the street now I can see a single parking space for a small car...

I don't drive and my wife goes to work by train, so her car frequently stays in the same spot from one weekend to the next, on the "I want a parking space" level we're not affected. However, I would like a CPZ now as the CPZs in surrounding areas have driven much commercial parking to our road - lots of builders' vans etc (it's become a habit now for some builders working within CPZs to drop off tools/materials in the morning, then go and park in one of the boundary roads - I know this from talking to them), commercial vehicles (someone who obviously sells/rents black cabs is using the street for storage, half a dozen last time I looked, none with TfL licence plates), and the aforementioned commuters. Frequently these vehicles are parked dangerously around junctions, making the area less safe for residents.

The commuters are especially irksome as many, especially in this cold weather, drive up and then sit with engines running while they make their 'phone calls, do their make up, sort out their paperwork etc prior to departing for the station. In December I came across one chap, suited and booted, sitting in his Merc with the engine running whilst enjoying a bowl of cereal! He seemed genuinely surprised that I should object to his diesel fumes filling the street whilst he tucked in...

So although I'd rather not have to pay for a CPZ (though as Reg sensibly points out above, £2.50 a week is hardly extortionate), and I'm more than happy to walk a fair distance to the car on the rare occasions I ride in it, I feel that the surrounding CPZs have more or less forced us into having one if we want to maintain a quiet and healthy urban environment.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by tiddles January 10, 01:57PM

Local businesses will be affected - people will often stop to shop en route
To somewhere else. I suspect alot of business is done by people popping into the card
Shop or chemist as part of a journey. If you are unable to stop you will push
On and conduct your business to somewhere you can park (supermarket/superstore

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rahrahrah January 10, 02:23PM

Why would people in Kent not drive to a local station and get a fast train into central London, as opposed to struggling through morning traffic for an hour or more, just to get on a bus or train from ED? It make no sense and in so far as this may happen, it cannot account for many vehicles.
I suspect that the vast majority of parked cars which appear during the day are people who work in the area - shop workers, doctors, school teachers etc.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rendelharris January 10, 02:37PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would people in Kent not drive to a local
> station and get a fast train into central London,
> as opposed to struggling through morning traffic
> for an hour or more, just to get on a bus or train
> from ED? It make no sense and in so far as this
> may happen, it cannot account for many vehicles.
> I suspect that the vast majority of parked cars
> which appear during the day are people who work in
> the area - shop workers, doctors, school teachers
> etc.

Annual season ticket ED-London £770, Dartford-London £2560. Personally, I'd pay the extra and take the train, but I guess others see it differently. Not just the costs, either, given the unreliability of some train services the security of knowing your car is just a few miles away if all the trains are cancelled must be a factor.

I can only say that in my experience of walking to/from the station at commuter times there are a significant number of people who park in the streets near the station and get the train from there.

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