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messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hillattachment
Posted by James Barber February 27, 08:58AM

Having made a point of walking along East Dulwich Grove and Melbourne Grove this morning I can see the problem - ROADWORKS. Gas leak road works started on Sunday, water connection on Monday. The gas annoyingly didn't;t have anyone working at the site from 8am this morning. I didn't get to the water one close to Lordship Lane (look at that one at lunch time).

This link shows several along East Dulwich Grove and the attached picture shows temporary traffic lights on East Dulwich Grove - [public.londonworks.gov.uk]
This does not show that the one-way on Champion hill is the cause of current queuing as described.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

Attachments: IMG_1011.JPG (157.2KB)  
messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by richard tudor February 27, 09:27AM

Those works have been there for a long time. Both there and works outside the new Charter school.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Abe_froeman February 27, 09:36AM

James, there doesn't seem to be any traffic at all on either side of the road in that photo?

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by James Barber February 27, 09:43AM

I took the photo at the end of a log green phase going west - which I suspect is making the problem worse the light timings. And all Temporary Traffic Management Orders are approved by Southwark Council - clearly they're not insisting on being told the timings of lights or asking for adaptive lights that sense vehicle queueing and re balance green passes accordingly.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Cardelia February 27, 11:24AM

James Barber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This link shows several along East Dulwich Grove
> and the attached picture shows temporary traffic
> lights on East Dulwich Grove -
> [public.londonworks.gov.uk]
> lqRGHMYbf929f5Rukg
> This does not show that the one-way on Champion
> hill is the cause of current queuing as described.

Well, James, traffic levels on East Dulwich Grove were pretty similar the week immediately after Champion Hill was closed. There were no roadworks then, so it's fair to say that the closure of Champion Hill has - at the very least - been a contributory factor to the increased traffic levels on EDG. There's no doubt that the current roadworks are making the situation worse, but that doesn't mean they're the only cause of increased traffic levels on EDG. Shall we wait until next week and see what happens when the works are finished?

I'd also like to point out that there are no roadworks on Grove Lane/Champion Park, and traffic levels on those two roads are significantly worse than they were prior to the closure of Champion Hill. Would you care to offer an explanation for that?

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by James Barber February 27, 12:09PM

Yes, at some point Southwark will deploy traffic counts on all the local roads and we'll all be able ot see the changes in traffic levels.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by goldilocks February 27, 12:22PM

James - just to clarify there are some roadworks this week, but there weren't the week before half term and the tailbacks were just as bad. There has been a significant step change in the level of queueing traffic ever since the champion Grove closure has been implemented. Whilst it seems a large diversion - there are only so many routes available to Herne Hill and beyond given the playing fields between the top of Dog Kennel Hill and ED Grove so its not implausible that this change is caused by the road closure.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by sdrs February 27, 01:59PM

Absolutely right. The dangerous increase in congestion on Melbourne Grove and East Dulwich Grove has coincided exactly with the Champion Hill no entry trial, it cannot be attributed to the roadworks which long predate the trial (though yes, the displaced traffic from the Champion Hill trial is encountering roadworks when it reaches EDG). Unable now to access Denmark Hill via Champion Hill and faced with gridlock on Grove Lane and Champion Park between 8 and 9am every day, motorists are clearly seeking an alternative route to Denmark Hill via Melbourne and East Dulwich Grove. This is the very opposite of Ďhealthy streetsí, the slogan used to justify the no entry trial - this is vehicles including diesel buses siting in long queues alongside primary and secondary lschools at both the top and bottom of the hill, spewing out pollution. James, you are a resident of Champion Hill and in favour of the trial. Fine, but please donít letís pretend that the significant rise in congestion and pollution weíve seen on northbound and westbound routes around Champion Hill since the closure have nothing to do with it.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by goldilocks February 27, 02:40PM

Also - the roadworks don't 'long predate' the trial - they're sporadic - there may be an order for the whole period, but they're not always there. There was a week or so with none before half term. We travel along this route every day (though try to avoid walking along the main road for obvious reasons!)

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by James Barber March 01, 10:00AM

Hi sdra,
The road works started 24 Feb?
How do they long predate?

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by goldilocks March 01, 01:45PM

James - there have been various roadworks along ED Grove for months now - these particular ones may have started on the 24th but over recent months there have been many traffic light controlled roadworks on this stretch (as you'd expect with the school and health centre works).

The point of my clarification earlier was that for the first week of the Champion Grove trial there were no roadworks on ED grove and the tailbacks were longer than when there were (pre trial). Obviously roadworks exacerbate the problem, but it doesn't detract that in making changes to the traffic flows around champion hill /Dog Kennel hill, traffic has built up unacceptably along East Dulwich Grove. Whilst this was always a busy route, the queueing is now excessive along a route with 3 separate schools and a route to many more!

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Galileo March 01, 05:12PM

It was queuing along EDG all the way back from Mag to Lordship lane mid afternoon today. The traffic was horribly and crossing the road felt like the Wild West! I donít know precisely what is causing it but there is a definite worsening of traffic queuing on both EDG and Grove Vale st the moment.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by sdrs March 02, 12:53PM

Agree. Residents are observing a clear and unacceptable increase in congestion and pollution as a result of the scheme - ironically, its stated purpose was to reduce pollution! This is a scheme for which there was no evidenced need and which is failing in its vaguely stated objectives. The pollution it is causing is precisely what is worrying residents, our children have to breathe it in on their way to school. The delay to bus journeys is also unacceptable - journeys taking more than twice as long as they should between Dog Kennel Hill and Denmark Hill in morning rush hour.
Hereís a link to the consultation

[consultations.southwark.gov.uk]

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by heartblock March 02, 11:37PM

Apologies for copying from my comment on another thread but..Over 25 years the traffic on East Dulwich Grove has become worse and worse. Every time there is a new set of lights or a new traffic calming hump or island put in it just makes it worse. There is either long queues of traffic at rush hour or speeding traffic at other times, with cars not stopping at pedestrian crossings or racing across speed bumps at ridiculous speeds. The pollution is also terrible. It is an A road but it is also a residential area and has 3 schools. Closing other roads and not planning globally across the road system combined with a preference to please residents in more expensive housing areas has pushed more traffic onto this road.
I have lived on this road for all this time and the traffic is worse than ever, when the new school and health centre were planned, someone should have considered the impact.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by James Barber March 03, 09:01AM

Hi heartblock,
Over that same period the population of London has increased by 2 million people form 6.8 to 8.8million. I would suggest that is the largest contributor to the problem. The forecast is another 2 million will be added in the next 25 year.s I would argue that is unsustainable but as things stand this is extremely likely to happen.
Even keeping exactly the same traffic levels that suggests a quarter of current car users have to give up using cars or all current car users have to reduce their car mileage and ownership by a quarter. That's just to stand still.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by PeterW March 03, 09:23AM

"Champion Hill was a wide, sparsely populated and free flowing route towards Denmark Hill, which allowed us a fast, reliable way to bypass your streets"

If I can dive in to respond to this point - I'm afraid none of that is true. And I know because I live there. It's a narrow road, and the traffic was hideous. On the part of the road joining Denmark Hill, cars would regularly go the wrong way around the traffic islands to avoid parked vehicles, while the pavement on the section towards DKH is very narrow, no fun at all to walk down with young kids when cars are bouncing over the speed bumps at 35mph or so (it's a 20mph limit). It used to be hideous to cycle on, and taking kids across the road to school in the morning would often involve parents having to actually stand in the middle to force a break in the traffic.

It's also not "sparsely populated", quite the opposite. There's a series of estates of flats and houses, eg Ruskin park House, Langford Green and the blocks on the DKH side. Just because it's not a row of houses, that doesn't mean no one lives there.

The idea of appealing to people to lobby the council to return things to how they were to "bypass your streets" and make your own driving experience more convenience is a bit of a depressing sentiment. Ending the Champion Hill trial isn't going to make the traffic situation any better, it just shunts in back to a different road. The fact it's my road gives me a vested interest, but I'd feel the same whichever one it was.

I've posted on this in another thread so I won't repeat myself too much, but in brief: if people are genuinely interested in quieter, safer, less polluted streets, then the only way that's going to be achieved is *more* of these kids of schemes, to make it less convenient for people to drive shorter, local journeys, thus incentivising more people to use public transport, or walk or cycle. Of course, one-off schemes aren't ideal, and it would be better if Southwark had the cash/imagination to implement these changes all across SE22 & SE5, so the problem is dealt with holistically. Don't lobby Southwark to bring more cars back to Champion Hill - lobby them to also close off Melbourne Grove and all other residential streets to through traffic. Think big, not small.

If people just blindly oppose every single change that could make the streets more pleasant and human-friendly, then in the end nothing gets done and we all end up having to live with the deadly effects of a transport mode used by a minority of people Ė almost two-thirds of Southwark households have no access to a car. Those who do drive are also, statistically, more likely to be richer, but that's an argument for another time.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by intexasatthe moment March 03, 11:26AM

What a lot of exaggeration on both sides ,Champion Hill is neither narrow nor wide .Though if pushed I'd come down on the side of it being considerably wider than many streets in ED .

The pavement on the East ( ? ) side of the part leading to DKH ,outside the estate , is narrow ,The pavement on the opposite side is a normal width .

It's true that parked cars and traffic islands create pinch points but surely there are remedies other than closing the road - restricting parking for one .The road itself is wide enough to allow cars to pass eachother in opposite dorections .Which is certainly not the case on many streets in ED .

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Camberwellse5 March 03, 11:47AM

This is extraordinary. Champion Hill is one of the most residential streets in south Southwark. Hundreds of children from the estates and hundreds of young people from Kings College hall walk its streets daily to get to DKH primary, Lyndhurst or the new Charter or to get to university. The road has been a hazard for years as vehicles, many of which are diesel fuelled vans pour out pollution at pushchair height. In addition those treating the road as a rat run travel very fast, ignoring the give way and often driving on the wrong side of the road as they head north in order not to slow down around the bollards. What sort of society decides a few minutes longer in your car is more important than a childís life. In addition people need to understand the traffic flows which is that Champion Hill is a rat run between Peckham and Brixton. Itís not going to increase traffic flows except along the bus route.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rupert james March 03, 12:00PM

One should also remember that it was Southwark that put the traffic Isles in when they were never required because they were offered money so they took it.

Residents were against it.

Also it was Southwark that placed the parking spaces that close to the bollards causing the problems.

Before the bollards there was never ever a problem

When did Champion Hill become one of the most residential streets in South Southwark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 03, 12:44pm by rupert james.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by PeterW March 03, 12:11PM

"... surely there are remedies other than closing the road - restricting parking for one .The road itself is wide enough to allow cars to pass eachother in opposite dorections .Which is certainly not the case on many streets in ED"

As I said earlier, it really shouldn't be an either/or. Why make life even more noisy and dangerous for people on a residential streets? Making such roads wider or more free-flowing for cars is the sort of thing that was tried in the 60s and 70s. It doesn't make anyone's lives easier except for the drivers, who, again as I mentioned, are in a minority. It does baffle me the the vast majority of road space is given over to this niche pursuit, let alone all the extra room for parking at massively subsidised costs.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by AylwardS March 03, 12:38PM

There have been some valid points on here and if you have concerns use the trial period to see how your concerns are affected by differing traffic levels.

Traffic in South London generally has been worse for the last 4-6 weeks and its not always clear why. Last week I walked down a road at a time Iíve been walking down it regularly for the last couple of years and the traffic was worse than Iíve ever seen it. Someone else at the class I was going to had walked down the same road 5 minutes earlier and a bus and car had a minor accident, didnít pull out of the traffic to swap details and access both ways to the High Street was affected. Given all the roadworks locally - those at Denmark Hill / Camberwell will go on until July - Iím not sure the trial will ever see ďnormalĒ traffic levels.

Not all of the concerns expressed here are just down to the closure, though it may not be helping.

If air quality / pollution is a concern for you this page from TfL might be of interest [tfl.gov.uk].

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 03, 12:44PM

rupert james Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Residents were against it.

If you mean residents of the street, no they weren't, responses to the consultation were a majority in favour.

> Before the bollards there was never ever a
> problem

Yes there was, I lived there then and people used to drive down the street at speeds of 40mph+. I saw/heard a large number of accidents, especially at the Denmark Hill end, caused by drivers tearing down towards the junction and going too fast for the bend.

> When did Champion Hill become one of the most
> residential street in South Southwark

It has Ruskin Court (15 flats) Ruskin Park House (241 flats), the Champion Hill estate (don't know how many flats but can't be fewer than 150), the Langford Green estate (45 houses and flats), the Kings College halls of residence (700 students). Assuming (surely an underestimate) an occupancy of two per house/flat, plus the students, that makes around 1800 people dwelling on that road. Just how residential do you want?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 03, 12:47pm by rendelharris.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rupert james March 03, 12:51PM

With regard to the bollards can you please tell when they were erected?

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 03, 01:01PM

rupert james Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With regard to the bollards can you please tell
> when they were erected?

No idea except it was at some time between 2006 and 2016 when I lived there - more towards the 2006 end. I remember having to work in the library for a week because of the noise building the new junction with Denmark Hill. Peter W may remember better.

ETA I've just found a fabulous tool in Google Streetview that allows one to go back and see all available dates, so I can tell you they weren't there in 2008 but they were there in 2014, so I'd guess somewhere around 2010.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was march 03, 01:10pm by rendelharris.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by James Barber March 03, 02:29PM

Champion Hill has 922 adults on the electoral roll in 453 homes.
So with children and people not on the electoral roll likely to be 1,200 people.

This makes interesting read - [www.southwark.gov.uk]


Hi ITATM,
The northern pavement E-W section starts wide at DKH and then rapidly diminishes all the way to the very eastern end. Vast majority is narrow both sides.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 03, 03:00PM

James Barber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Champion Hill has 922 adults on the electoral roll
> in 453 homes.
> So with children and people not on the electoral
> roll likely to be 1,200 people.

Not that it matters - either way it's clearly massively residential! - but I reckon that's probably an underestimate, with 700 students in the halls; in my experience most students remain on the electoral roll in their family area. Do you know (just out of curiosity) how many on the electoral roll are from the halls?

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Charles Notice March 03, 03:52PM

How many people/houses are there on Grove Hill Road, Bromar Road, Pytchley Road, Quorn Road, Malfort Road, Ivanhoe Road together with all the flats on to the the DKH estate that now have the pleasure of the road closure?

Now that would be interesting.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 03, 04:21PM

Charles Notice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many people/houses are there on Grove Hill
> Road, Bromar Road, Pytchley Road, Quorn Road,
> Malfort Road, Ivanhoe Road together with all the
> flats on to the the DKH estate that now have the
> pleasure of the road closure?

Why would there be any increase in traffic on Bromar or Grove Hill Roads? The only place they can get you is onto Champion Hill going east, which is now redundant. The closure should, in fact, lower traffic levels on these roads as they can no longer be used as a ratrun through to Denmark Hill, and indeed the couple of times a week I ride up there on a weekday morning peak it has. Furthermore, living very close to Ivanhoe/Pytchley/Quorn I have noticed no increase in traffic whatsoever, and I walk/cycle them most days. Funny, there have been a lot of complaints on this thread from people complaining that they'll have to take longer/slower journeys now their little ratrun has been closed, and purporting concern for residents in these roads, but I don't recall a single person from any of these roads complaining that they've experienced any rise in traffic level. Why would that be, I wonder?

As it happens, I was walking to hospital recently and was so struck by the lack of traffic on Grove Hill Road (where previously the queues in the AM rush hour from the lights stretched well back over the zebra and beyond due to ratrunners heading for Champion Hill) that I took a snap of it. This was taken at 8.29 AM on Tuesday February 12th. Not exactly Carmageddon, is it? Rather nice for Grove Hill residents, I should think, and the primary school.

https://i.imgur.com/TOXMUj7.jpg?1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 03, 04:23pm by rendelharris.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Charles Notice March 03, 04:45PM

The question asked was how residential were the above roads?

If you feel Champion Hill was heavily residential and quote all your numbers why can the numbers not be known for the above to draw some kind of comparison.

It could be people may not be on the EDF so do not put their views forward.

As Champion Hill is closed that could be why there is no traffic as to get down to Denmark Hill you have to use the above roads.

Was it not half term around the date of your picture?

Out of interest what was the traffic like at the DKH/Grove Lane junction down to Denmark Hill?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 03, 04:47pm by Charles Notice.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 03, 04:55PM

Charles Notice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The question asked was how residential were the
> above roads?
>
> If you feel Champion Hill was heavily residential
> and quote all your numbers why can the numbers not
> be known for the above to draw some kind of
> comparison.
>
> It could be people may not be on the EDF so do not
> put their views forward.
>
> As Champion Hill is closed that could be why there
> is no traffic as to get down to Denmark Hill you
> have to use the above roads.
>
> Was it not half term around the date of your
> picture?
>
> Out of interest what was the traffic like at the
> DKH/Grove Lane junction down to Denmark Hill?

I didn't walk down there, I walked down Camberwell Grove. You did say that people on Grove Hill Road would "have the pleasure of the road closure", i.e. implying they would be suffering increased traffic - they're not.

No, it wasn't half term, that was 18th-22nd February this year.

If you want to know how many people are on these roads I'm sure you can work it out for yourself - but if they're not suffering increased traffic numbers are irrelevant anyway, aren't they?

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