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messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Penguin68 March 11, 09:57AM

Given the choice most children prefer walking, cycling, scootering to school.

In my experience, rather depends on the weather.

Also - the assumption is being made that parents face the task of getting a child to school. But many face getting two or more children to different schools, often in different directions (from their house), one child at least probably needing to be accompanied, however travelling, and then, very possibly, additionally getting to work themselves (getting to a station etc.). Once those logistics are in place, the simplicity of 'walking your child to school' somewhat evaporates. For many children 'getting to school' if on their own (secondary school) can mean running the gauntlet of other children on foot or on buses - many years ago teachers (in a school my children went to) used to travel on some buses to try to protect their pupils from those of a rival school. As gangs and mugging proliferate, travel by car seems a safer option to some. And I can't blame them. My cosy 1950s schooldays of cycling, walking or busing to school in relative safety are long gone.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by bels123 March 11, 10:49AM

James Barber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And also harming other peoples children from increased air
> pollution.

As well as your own children - if you're sat in traffic you're breathing in the exhaust fumes of the car infront. Air pollution is 9-12 times higher in a car, a fact many people still aren't aware of, or choose to ignore.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Sally Eva March 11, 11:32AM

[www.bbc.co.uk]

public health england "PHE medical director Paul Cosford told the BBC: "We should stop idling outside schools and we should make sure that children can walk or cycle to school."

PHE said 28,000 to 36,000 deaths a year in the UK could be attributed to long-term exposure to air pollution."

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by talfourdite March 11, 02:37PM

Every trip and situation has its own context and demands, from the age and number of of the kids and schools in question, the amount of things they are taking to school, family support network, distance, public transport options, weather to name a few. Every parent has to struggle with their own schedule and resources. All parents i am sure try to do their best, itís often hard and sub-ideal, but thatís life. We do have a pollution problem and talking about that is to help build that into transport choices is vital, but assuming many of the trips in question arenít done out of laziness and will carry on, via slower elongated routes, leads me to the conclusion this scheme is nett worse and makes the situational generally worse in every way for the entirety of local residents. I find the idea that parents shouldnít be able to exercise their judgement on their childrenís lives pretty bizarre. Rendel, I definitely donít want to make this personal (as you seem to keep doing with your little barbed comments) but you seem very judgemental on every one elseís life and what they should/shouldnít be able to do with no real knowledge about their circumstances. I personally find it quite rude, ill informed and offensive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 11, 02:40pm by talfourdite.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 11, 02:53PM

talfourdite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Rendel, I
> definitely donít want to make this personal (as
> you seem to keep doing with your little barbed
> comments) but you seem very judgemental on every
> one elseís life and what they should/shouldnít be
> able to do with no real knowledge about their
> circumstances. I personally find it quite rude,
> ill informed and offensive.

AKA I don't like anyone disagreeing with me and so will make unfounded accusations against them. Kindly point out a single instance in this thread in which I have been rude to you - not just disagreed with you but been "rude and offensive". Just one.

I personally find it rude and offensive that some people believe their "right" to drive when and where they please trumps other people's children's rights to live in clean and safe environments.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by talfourdite March 11, 03:32PM

everything in life is a trade off. Iím not sure where you passing absolute judgments from afar on other peopleís lives without understanding their circumstances seems ok. I presume you have been in a car, used a bus, have central heating? All the choices we make have environmental consequences.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 11, 04:06PM

Indeed, life is all about choices. And when people make choices about their lifestyles - where they want to live, work, send their kids to school etc - that necessitate polluting and congesting other people's neighbourhoods, they shouldn't be surprised if other people exercise their right to make choices in terms of asking them not to and asking for environmental protections.

Still waiting for you to justify calling me rude - again, one single instance from this thread where I've been rude to (rather than disagreed with) you please.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by talfourdite March 11, 06:01PM

No, I take it back. Youíre right. Letís all stop driving through your road and all the others and itíll all be wonderful. Have a nice life.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 11, 06:25PM

That would be smashing if you could, thanks (Champion Hill is not my road, by the way). Yes it would be wonderful if all traffic bar access was kept to A roads, good idea, well done. Can I just ask you to think about this: Champion Hill was, before this closure, experiencing rush hour traffic levels equal to those on the adjoining A roads of Grove Lane and Champion Park. Living on Taulford Road, you're adjoining an A road too, (A202 Peckham Road). If 50% of the Peckham Road traffic suddenly started ratrunning up Taulford, I presume you'd just accept that without demur?

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by talfourdite March 11, 08:20PM

I think youíre such a genius you should probably advertise this great idea all the time.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by talfourdite March 11, 08:25PM

So, for all other people who think there is a need to have some roads in London that can accept traffic, and wish to live in the real world, particularly those disproportionately suffering as a result of this closure, please do fill out the Southwark consultation. Over and out.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 11, 09:31PM

talfourdite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, for all other people who think there is a need
> to have some roads in London that can accept
> traffic, and wish to live in the real world,
> particularly those disproportionately suffering as
> a result of this closure, please do fill out the
> Southwark consultation. Over and out.

It's so good of you to be so unselfishly concerned about others and not about your own ability to send nanny on the ratrun. Does you credit.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Passiflora March 11, 11:28PM

Just to say Rendel that you did post a very rude reply to the OP on Saturday night which was probably read by lots of people on the forum but was then edited the following morning.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 12, 05:36AM

Passiflora Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just to say Rendel that you did post a very rude
> reply to the OP on Saturday night which was
> probably read by lots of people on the forum but
> was then edited the following morning.

Absolute rubbish. But then in your weird Passiflora-aggressive way you think anyone's rude if they disagree with your "let me drive whenever and wherever I want" outlook. It's much easier to accuse people of rudeness than produce a substantive counter-argument, isn't it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 12, 05:41am by rendelharris.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by intexasatthe moment March 12, 08:42AM

"It's so good of you to be so unselfishly concerned about others and not about your own ability to send nanny on the ratrun."

"But then in your weird Passiflora-aggressive way you think anyone's rude if they disagree with your "let me drive whenever and wherever I want" outlook."

I think comments like these are rude . They add nothing to a debate about Southwark's actions with regard to traffic management or pollution in general . IMO they detract from that debate .

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 12, 09:16AM

intexasatthe moment Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "It's so good of you to be so unselfishly
> concerned about others and not about your own
> ability to send nanny on the ratrun."

> I think comments like these are rude . They add
> nothing to a debate about Southwark's actions with
> regard to traffic management or pollution in
> general . IMO they detract from that debate .

talfourdite started this "debate" with an OP frankly scaremongering, trying to persuade people from a wide catchment area to object to the CH closure by saying people like him/her would have "no choice" but to drive through their neighbourhoods (which as pointed out above, isn't true in their case at all). S/he has made great play of being concerned for the impact of pollution levels on children etc, but has failed to point out that one of the polluting vehicles, as is obvious from his/her previous advertisements on this forum, is/was driven by his/her nanny taking the kids to private school (and yes that is relevant, sending children to private schools a distance away is a choice). talfourdite's main motive is not protecting neighbourhoods or lowering pollution, it's keeping the ratrun open so his/her kids can get to school more quickly. If pointing out hypocrisy's rude, so be it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was march 12, 09:37am by rendelharris.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by nxjen March 12, 09:22AM

I agree with Texas. You do it again and again Rendall on many threads stifling debate with petty point scoring, determined to get the better of any poster who views things differently from you. I agree with much of what you say on many subjects but you make it all so unpleasant.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 12, 09:36AM

nxjen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Texas. You do it again and again
> Rendall on many threads stifling debate with petty
> point scoring, determined to get the better of any
> poster who views things differently from you. I
> agree with much of what you say on many subjects
> but you make it all so unpleasant.

Jolly good, anyone else want to join in? Sally Buying, you'll surely want to join the gang?

Look, I join in debates on here on things about which I feel passionate - pollution and unnecessary selfish car use being one of them. When people are propounding a selfish, destructive argument for their own selfish ends, yes I will oppose them and point out where they're wrong. If that's "stifling debate", tough - if people don't want silly, unsupportable or hypocritical views pointed out, perhaps they should keep those views off public fora.

If you don't like what I say then feel free to skip over my posts. If my posts are in contravention of forum rules, feel free to report them to Admin for deletion. Otherwise, I'll continue to comment as I see fit on what I wish in whatever way I (not you) feel is appropriate, as is as much my right as it is yours. Cheerio!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was march 12, 09:41am by rendelharris.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by cella March 12, 10:18AM

I can't see any examples of Rendelharris being rude. He is robust in his posts and argues his point energetically on issues. This is very different to some posters idea of what is "rude".

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by intexasatthe moment March 12, 10:21AM

I don't have time at the moment to look again at the posts and consider whether I agree with RH's judgement of them as being hypocritical but ..

Rendel ,like others I often enjoy your posts and appreciate your contributions but there are ways to point out perceived hypocrisy and keep the discussion/debate going in a constructive way .I think your comments are often sarcastic and rude , tend to distract from the main issues and to close conversations down .

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by intexasatthe moment March 12, 10:26AM

cella - people have different views ,personally I think RH's robustness often becomes rudeness .

I'm conscious that I'm leading this thread away from traffic management into a discussion about posting style .

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Cardelia March 12, 10:49AM

rendelharris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Passiflora Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just to say Rendel that you did post a very
> rude
> > reply to the OP on Saturday night which was
> > probably read by lots of people on the forum
> but
> > was then edited the following morning.
>
> Absolute rubbish. But then in your weird
> Passiflora-aggressive way you think anyone's rude
> if they disagree with your "let me drive whenever
> and wherever I want" outlook. It's much easier to
> accuse people of rudeness than produce a
> substantive counter-argument, isn't it?

If you want to avoid giving off the impression of being rude and offensive, prefacing your posts with statements like "OK, you may find this question offensive..." isn't exactly helping your cause (post 79 of this thread, assuming I can count correctly).

I also saw that comment on Saturday, by the way. I don't particularly care if you are confrontational, I know I can be just as bad on topics I feel passionately about (and this is the internet, after all). But the fact that you edited that post the next morning suggests that you know your comment went beyond the line of just disagreeing with someone, and it was genuinely rude.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by goldilocks March 12, 10:52AM

Without getting into the rude / not rude comments above there are a few points i'd like to make.

In principle i'm for measures to encourage people to drive less and use active travel or public transport more. This is especially true for shorter journeys of up to 3-4 miles. Unless you have disabilities then realistically everyone should be considering whether there are better options than sitting in their cars contribution to the congestion that is a huge issue for our area of London. Yes, there are issues that make cycling etc trickier - but they're often not insummountable (panniers / baskets for example help with lots of the stuff that needs carrying, musical instruments don't need taking every day for most children and unless they play cello / double base most can be made into a backpack carrying arrangement and still ride a bike). Cycling is often way quicker than driving or taking a bus too.

However, this road closure isn't doing that - it isn't enough really. The pain of it isn't really sufficient to make car drivers choose an alternative means of travel, yet the impact on the alternative routes is significant especially given the amount of schools directly on the routes that the traffic is being re routed onto.

We need a much more joined up view of road closures - preferably to ensure that all children have the option of a 'safe route to school' from a pollution perspective to encourage more to travel actively and to make it safer for those who already do so.

The congestion around East Dulwich Grove is massively exacerbated by the private schools in our area as their pupils travel from a much wider area and therefore the number of parents driving their children is staggering. Any solution to cut down traffic needs to work with the foundation schools and consider measures to increase alternative forms of travel for their pupils - be it school streets to deter parents driving, more foundation coaches at different times/ with more flexible terms. This isn't intended to come across as "private school bashing", or deflect the very tangible impact each of us can make, but more that closing one road alone isn't helpful.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by wulfhound March 12, 11:02AM

... and to bring this back full circle, what this comes down to is that people will cut their cloth to fit their means.

This has two key implications:

1) That when those means are changed by external factors, people will - quite reasonably - get upset about it. If you've planned your life around a 20-minute car journey to school, and all of a sudden that 20 becomes 30, it's fair enough that you'll feel put out..

but:

2) That people, generally, will do what's easy. Very few are so environmentally worthy that they'll put themselves out to walk and cycle everywhere, if it's much slower and more dangerous than the alternative. Which in turn leads to the conclusion that if you want to change peoples' behaviour, and their decisions around how to organise their lives, you have to change what's easy - but it's reasonable to expect that that will lead to inconvenience and unhappiness in the short term, as people who are used to doing things a certain way are forced to adjust.

Cue cries of "social engineering" from those who lean to the Classical Liberal end of the political spectrum. Newsflash: all engineering is social. Nobody describes Tinder or the M25 as social engineering, despite the massive implications for society. I've personally got no problem with the authorities taking it upon themselves to undertake this kind of project, as long as there's a modicum of democratic accountability.

One thing puzzles me though.. zooming out a little, one of the following must be true:

1) It's too easy to drive short trips (of say 3 miles and under), and it should be made more difficult in order to discourage such trips.

2) It's too difficult to drive short trips, and it should be made easier (by, for example, widening the South Circular, building new ones, opening e.g. Green Dale up to motor traffic, reopening the Dulwich Park road, increasing urban speed limits to 40mph).

3) The status quo in which we find ourselves is somehow, per Goldilocks, just right.

Now, should someone here argue for 2), from the point of view of economic growth, social mobility or some such, I'd vehemently disagree, but I'd at least recognise the consistency of their position. It's reasonable to want different outcomes and argue for them. If you want to live in a world where economic wealth and efficiency matters more than air quality, say, that's a legitimate point of view - just not one I agree with.

And yet almost nobody is making that argument. And while I'd strongly disagree with 2), I think it's at least more plausible than 3), which seems to enjoy wide support, yet on closer examination just seems somehow... unlikely.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 12, 11:06AM

Cardelia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If you want to avoid giving off the impression of
> being rude and offensive, prefacing your posts
> with statements like "OK, you may find this
> question offensive..." isn't exactly helping your
> cause (post 79 of this thread, assuming I can
> count correctly).

That's somewhat disingenuous to quote that and not the following section which said "sincere apologies if you have a disability and need to use your car..." or similar. Perhaps I should have said "You may find this question offensive..." That doesn't indicate that I think the question is offensive, it indicates that I know that some people, as it involves what they will perceive as a challenge to what they believe in, will choose to take it offensively. It's not as if I said "You may find this offensive but @#$%& off", is it?

> I also saw that comment on Saturday, by the way. I
> don't particularly care if you are
> confrontational, I know I can be just as bad on
> topics I feel passionately about (and this is the
> internet, after all). But the fact that you edited
> that post the next morning suggests that you know
> your comment went beyond the line of just
> disagreeing with someone, and it was genuinely
> rude.

No, I didn't edit it as I thought it was rude (unless I remember incorrectly, the bit I deleted was commenting on the fact that the OP employs a nanny to drive her children to private school, wasn't it?) but because I knew on reflection it was offering the OP and others the opportunity to accuse me of being off-topic, personal etc to distract attention from from the hypocrisy and weakness of their position. Which they have now successfully accomplished.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was march 12, 11:34am by rendelharris.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by James Barber March 12, 11:21AM

I agree with wulfhound.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by cella March 12, 11:29AM

intexasatthe moment Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cella - people have different views ,personally I
> think RH's robustness often becomes rudeness .
>
> I'm conscious that I'm leading this thread away
> from traffic management into a discussion about
> posting style .

People do indeed have different views, which us what the Forum's for, and I disagree with yours on this!

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Jules-and-Boo March 12, 12:05PM

I also agree with Wulfhound
People are putting their own convenience above the good for the environment and the bigger picture.

My children walk or take the bus to school and I do the same for work.

While there are people who struggle with mobility, most people drive out of personal convenience.

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by Administrator March 12, 12:22PM

Please play the ball not the player, and in doing so you'll keep this on topic. Happy days!

--------------------
The Administrator
______________________
Help & FAQ's - Terms of use

messageRe: Residents Melbourne Grove, Adys Road, Bromar Road - Traffic increases due to Champion Hill
Posted by EDBoy March 12, 03:46PM

Just a reminder, if you have observations or concerns about how the *Champion Hill No Entry Trial* is operating in practice, please submit your comments using the attached link:

[consultations.southwark.gov.uk]

The closing date is 30/09/2019.

If you have strong opinions either way, then perhaps canvass your neighbours who are either not on the EDF or are unaware of the monitoring form on the Southwark Council website and make sure they submit their feedback.

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