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The East Dulwich Forum
The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by spider69 February 28, 04:56PM

James Barber wrote.

"Equally it does seem odd that quite so many drive to a park. especially when quite so many bus routes pass so close to Dulwich and Peckham Rye parks giving many real public transport options in addition to walking and cycling"

Have you or Southwark made any investigation why this might be the case?

Or is it a case of that fits what we all think round this table. Lets do it.

TMO job done.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Rockets February 28, 07:18PM

Ah this probably explains why the council removed the recycling bins at Belair - putting revenue before the environment as they managed to free up 10 more soon to be paid-for parking spaces by removing it.

This council is out of control - all parts of Labour have been infected by the dangerous hard-left and they are taxing car owners/middle classes aggressively - be that the CPZ, parking charges or the myriad of hair-brained ideas designed to make driving around the borough impossible based on the flawed logic that people will stop using cars.

And they will bleat on about Tory austerity but thatís their go-to weak excuse/justification for everything. I did laugh a few years ago when I saw a huge billboard advert in Lambeth apologising to residents for having to reduce services due to central government cuts.......the irony of spending council money on such a thing in a time of austerity......

Thank goodness Chuka is trying to rally a more centrist option, one that isnít either hard-left or hard-right because both sides of the political spectrum at the moment are pretty unpalatable - one with rabid anti-semitism the other rabid xenophobia.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by roywj February 28, 07:29PM

I think the bins were probably removed as they were being abused and it was creating an eye sore up there. Same reason Sainsbury's removed their bins.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by SJK February 28, 09:07PM

Deleted



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was february 28, 09:57pm by SJK.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Sue February 28, 09:34PM

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sue Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > DulwichFox Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > >
> > > Time to get rid of Taxing Labour Southwark
> > > council
> >
> >
> > And you think a non-Labour Southwark council
> would
> > have made money how?
> >
> > It is the Tory so-called government who has cut
> > council funding to the bone, as I understand
> it.
> >
> > How do you understand it?
>
> I understand that under its current leadership
> Labour is unelectable.
> But that's a different story.
> You cannot use the motorist for every shortfall in
> Council Funding.
> Southwark Council wasting Millions on unnecessary
> road schemes that do nothing to improve traffic
> flow.
> There should be no need to charge people to park
> their cars in our Parks.
> I would like to know who came up with that little
> Nugget.



So you can't actually answer my question, then?

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by VerryBerry February 28, 11:00PM

I'm past fed up with this lot and the anti driving lobby. Peckham Rye Park is well ised and loved. The place was heaving this week in the children's play area after school due to the good weather. Many travelled locally but drove in beacuse quite frankly, with more than one child it's easier. This proposed charge will now deter the parents on the school run from quickly detoring to the play area and force them inside.

Poor idea.

It's like these guys are signing off on crazy ideas beacuse they expect to be voted out and want to destroy local residents quality of life and enjoyment of local free amenities. They've already sold off part of the park for the festival preventing people from relaxing on the bank holiday. At a pittance if what I hear it correct.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by tiddles February 28, 11:24PM

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 01, 06:26am by tiddles.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by bels123 March 01, 12:48AM

VerryBerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm past fed up with this lot and the anti driving
> lobby. Peckham Rye Park is well ised and loved.
> The place was heaving this week in the children's
> play area after school due to the good weather.
> Many travelled locally brut drove in beacuse quite
> frankly, with more than one child it's easier.
> This proposed charge will now deter the parents on
> the school run from quickly detoring to the play
> area and force them inside.
>
> Poor idea.

Guess you have to weigh up the convenience vís the consequence

Ď...exposure depends on the exhaust of the vehicle in front, and the air pollution that drivers breathe in is often worse than that of a pedestrian. We are fooling ourselves if we think we can hide in our cars - and by hiding in our cars we are making the pollution problem worse.í Dr Gary Fuller, The Invisible Killer (the rising global threat of air pollution - and how we can fight back) 2018



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 01, 12:59am by bels123.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by goldilocks March 01, 08:33AM

If you are local, your children are school age and have no disabilities, then driving to the park really shouldn't be something you'd consider. We really all need to be trying to use our cars less. There are occasions where the benefits of using the car will be greater, but driving children to a playground doesn't seem to be one of them - even just when you take account of the pollution your own children are exposed to in car journeys in congested areas, and before you take account of the impact on others as a result of that journey.

I know that no one wants to hear that their behaviours aren't sustainable but trying to claim that not allowing driving to parks will 'trap families indoors' is just alarmist. The options available to you will be to travel there in different ways, or carry on as you were, for which the cost will now be £2 per hour to park.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by KidKruger March 01, 09:00AM

wow, people really believe Southwark has done this because their priority is the environment ?

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Penguin68 March 01, 09:13AM

If you are local, your children are school age and have no disabilities

If you have to walk more than 20-25 minutes, particularly if one child is in a push chair (even if another is school age) then you will not feel that much like 'enjoying' the park when you get there, particularly with the walk back ahead of you. Neither will your children. Mind you, as a policy it will keep out those awful extended families, people with dogs, the elderly, all those ghastly people who cannot afford to live nice and close (within easy walking distance from a park). Effectively keeping out the hoi polloi (anyone who can't readily afford the parking fee, even) is a wonderful policy for the council to pursue. It will be Dulwich parks for Dulwich people. It will make the parks so much more private for those with adjacent houses. And once the parks are unused enough, well we can get rid of them.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by goldilocks March 01, 09:13AM

Nope, not in the slightest. I think that having and maintaining carparks comes with a cost and the council have decided to charge for this. My point was more about the alarmist 'local people will be locked in their houses' response to this. Yes, its a charge for something that was previously free which is annoying, but its not something people 'have' to pay - there are other alternatives.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Sally Eva March 01, 09:15AM

People are saying that they approve of the decision because their own priority is the environment.

Southwark's reasons are set out in the decision. If you believe that the council is being misleading the remedy is judicial review.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by fishbiscuits March 01, 09:22AM

VerryBerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This proposed charge will now deter the parents on
> the school run from quickly detoring to the play
> area and force them inside.

I drive (and am unashamed to say I quite like cars and driving) but parents driving kids to/from school is something we need to cut down on. Especially round here where there are so many decent primaries. I'm sure there are some exceptional circumstances, but it shouldn't be the norm.

But even if you are in your car, spending £2 to park so your kids can go to the playground doesn't sound like a big deal to me. A couple of times a week... £100 a year. If you can afford to run a car...

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by spider69 March 01, 09:47AM

I have circulation problem with my feet whereby I need to walk a lot. My dog and I use Dulwich Park once a day and sometimes twice as it is flat and pleasant and does not put to much pressure on my metatarsal bones due to fat loss. It gives us both the exercise that Doctors recommend.

Prior to Champion Hill closing it took me 10/12 minutes by car to reach the park. Now I am looking at 25minutes sometimes more to get there.

Now that this charge is being brought in I will have to consider if I can afford to go for 2/3 hours a day combined with other factors.

Before the normal comments are made if I have to take public transport, which involves 2 buses and walking the journey will take a min of 40 minutes or longer each way. That time depends if the bus/s turns up on time or at all. My house is situated in the middle of a hill away from public transport. So it is already difficult to reach a starting point.

Combine that with having a dog and the prospect does not really appeal after testing it. Getting a bus with a dog presents problems as mothers with prams that look like tanks take up most of the limited space parking space and space between the seats is very limited.

So looking to use my local park which I have done for almost 73 years a return journey will now take me around 90 minutes without the time spent in the park.

Factor into that being tired after walking, and it rains having a wet dog on a bus which will not please some the park is really getting out of reach.

6 days a week for me will cost £36 a week extra for something that I already pay towards with my Council tax, which if the talk is correct will be over £2000+ for this year. I cannot afford to pay to use my local park

Some families will also have to make this decision.

Locals in the Dulwich Park area can walk with no problem but other that are not and have have to travel with children, toddler bikes, scooters, toys and the family dog will have to consider if they can afford the park which is crazy. Getting on a bus is most of the time not an option.

It might appear to some that the park and it surrounds is turning into a middle class ghetto which might just be used by only close residents. This is wrong.

It is strange that Southwark keep pushing fitness but continue to make it difficult for many.

Again another decision whilst looking at in a meeting has just not been thought through before putting it into operation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 01, 09:51am by spider69.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by MarkT March 01, 10:14AM

The first draft of the Dulwich SPD (special Planning Document?) put out for consultation stated "Dulwich is leafy and green." There were protests, so the 2nd version was "Dulwich is mostly leafy and green".

When the Council produced plans to build flats on the playground of the East Dulwich Community Centre, The "Save" campaign used a Council map, from the draft Southwark Plan, of "Open Space Deprivation" which showed circles of 5 minute walking distance from the nearest open space. The Community Centre lay in the space between Dulwich Park, Peckham Rye and Goose Green - the largest area of such open space deprivation in the Borough.

In the final Southwark Plan, the circles had been redrawn to 10 minute walking distance. Suddenly East Dulwich was well served by 3 parks.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by B+ March 01, 11:00AM

I have mixed feelings on charging to park in our beautiful Parks
Many people that use the car parks can easily afford to pay £2 per Hour and would not be put off by these charges, but there are many who canít pay and some that simply would
not be prepared to pay.

Public transport may not be an option for families who have planed a picnic
and have bikes and pushchairs to transport and then there are people who need
a car to bring an elderly or infirm person.

So we end up with a park where the wealthy (who need to bring a car) will still enjoy all the pleasures of a day in the park, and the poor (who need to bring a car) will be denied, in this is a socialist borough!

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by mrwb March 01, 11:20AM

B+ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have mixed feelings on charging to park in our
> beautiful Parks
> Many people that use the car parks can easily
> afford to pay £2 per Hour and would not be put off
> by these charges, but there are many who canít pay
> and some that simply would
> not be prepared to pay.
>
> Public transport may not be an option for families
> who have planed a picnic
> and have bikes and pushchairs to transport and
> then there are people who need
> a car to bring an elderly or infirm person.
>
> So we end up with a park where the wealthy (who
> need to bring a car) will still enjoy all the
> pleasures of a day in the park, and the poor (who
> need to bring a car) will be denied, in this is a
> socialist borough!

Yes, pretty much. These kinds of parking charges are highly regressive, as are the CPZ charges.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by first mate March 01, 11:28AM

While some local parks are being hired out for private use
[www.theguardian.com]

I wonder how the parks parking will be 'policed'? By phone ticket machines...? Will there be private wardens on patrol? The parks now have PSPOs in place. These could easily be extended to cover other areas that could also become revenue raising opportunities.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Abe_froeman March 01, 11:29AM

And the wealthy people will be the ones driving big gas guzzling 4 x 4s! Great for the environment....

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by dbboy March 01, 02:26PM

And note the date it's due to be implemented on. 1st April?????

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by johnie March 01, 03:13PM

James Barber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Equally it does seem odd that
> quite so many drive to a park. especially when
> quite so many bus routes pass so close to Dulwich
> and Peckham Rye parks giving many real public
> transport options in addition to walking and
> cycling.

Buses for many are not free, so a trip to the park could cost a few quid.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Sally Eva March 01, 03:18PM

Buses are not free and neither are cars.

People who own cars and use them for non-essential journeys impose a cost in pollution, road noise and danger on the rest of society.

There seems to be no reason why people who decide to take their pollution, road noise and danger into parks should be able to do that without paying.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by rupert james March 01, 04:33PM

Why are you now deciding what is an essential or non essential journey. Surely that is up to the person making the journey. You and others would not know the reason.

When I last checked cars cannot drive in or around Dulwich Park, except for a few disabled people, the rest go from the main road to a car park and then not moving, hardly taking pollution, road noise and danger into the park.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by first mate March 01, 06:07PM

I find the 'environment-saving' car park charges slightly at odds with Council moves to hire the park out for private events, which arguably damage sections of the park and wildlife. I also wonder about pollution measurements at those events? All those large vehicles.

One also senses that those with needs that don't fit into the council and its supporters agenda are viewed as necessary collateral damage.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by Sally Eva March 01, 06:56PM

rupert james Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are you now deciding what is an essential or
> non essential journey. Surely that is up to the
> person making the journey. You and others would
> not know the reason.
>
> When I last checked cars cannot drive in or around
> Dulwich Park, except for a few disabled people,
> the rest go from the main road to a car park and
> then not moving, hardly taking pollution, road
> noise and danger into the park.

I think the essential/non-essential distinction is quite objective. Essential journeys might be to buy food, as part of your work, to visit the doctor. In an emergency to take someone else to the doctor or help a neighbour.

Inessential journeys might be to take the dog to the park, to take the children to the playground, to visit the park cafes, to have a picnic. These are enjoyable and satisfying activities but not essential.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by rupert james March 01, 07:04PM

In your mind.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by first mate March 01, 07:42PM

I agree with the way you qualify your examples of non-essential journeys with a 'might' because some of those very same journeys might also be essential for a proportion of the population.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 01, 07:47pm by first mate.

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by James Barber March 01, 08:02PM

Hi rupert,
But those vehicles journeys are made through streets leaving air pollution outside the parks.
The council report states the charge is to cover the cost of providing parking. 50% of Southwark homes have no access to cars and therefore currently subsiding costs to provide vehicle parking.
But £2ph is clearly significantly higher than the actual costs of providing the car parking even allowing for the lost utility of land occupied by stationary vehicles.
I wish the plan was to use surpluses for local parks. At least park users paying such a charge would know it was beginning an uplift to parks. I also think the charge too high but understand Labour politicians not wanting to have to come back every year to increase it. The next increase would be after the next local election in 2022/3.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Council parks to charge £2ph parking fee from 1 April
Posted by rupert james March 01, 08:35PM

James Barber

I dont think I have read such rubbish.

How can this charge cover the cost of providing parking. The parking in Dulwich Park in its current form has been there since the beginning of time. It does not have a cost. It has been establish from years ago and has not been improved. It works.

"But those vehicles journeys are made through streets leaving air pollution outside the parks."

If this is the case why has Champion Hill been closed and traffic pushed through other streets.When there is no published results regarding pollution? Perhaps you could explain.

Why not ban all vehicles from the road. and make everyone walk.

"50% of Southwark homes have no access to cars and therefore currently subsiding costs to provide vehicle parking."

How?

Perhaps you should go back and read the post by spider69 earlier today, this is the true result and how it effects real people.

Its true the area is becoming a middle class ghetto when only the well off will be welcome in the park.

A question, will park staff that park in the carpark be charged this £2 ph?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 01, 08:41pm by rupert james.

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