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messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 14, 12:04PM

Just to make a point - but the bin lorries that collect kitchen waste will still be collecting weekly from each household, as before, and, as before, small amounts of waste will be consolidated by the bin men into large bins to be tipped into the trucks, with additionally a few household large brown bins with garden waste tipped in. In addition a number of large brown bins will be collected by Southwark (and done what with - presumably disposed of as plastic waste which can't be easily recycled?) and new kerb-side caddies bought and distributed. So we have one-off costs of collecting old bins and providing new ones - and I would guess very little actual time saving in organic waste collection.

In the first year of operation this will presumably run at a loss, and subsequent years will see rental income (you are now renting your large brown bin at £30 a year) - but no operational cost savings (but of course an ongoing operational cost to charge and collect rentals, deal with queries and complaints etc.).

As a revenue generation scheme it looks poor, its NPV will I imagine not be that compelling compared with Southwark's overall budget. And it will lose (a certain amount of) votes. [Those who like to see 'the rich' penalised will still be voting labour, those who don't may chose not to, where they once did].

Overall and at the charge now quoted - but perhaps watch this space this will make a very small, if any, net contribution to council income (as a pack of a fag packet exercise).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was april 14, 12:07pm by Penguin68.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by nxjen April 14, 12:20PM

Come off it, this isnít even a back of a fag packet exercise but more of a hunch influenced by wishful thinking!

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by trinidad April 14, 02:03PM

Hoiw will the £25.00 work, when neighbours share a brown bin?

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The hottest place in the world

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by tomskip April 14, 06:31PM

I'm with you NXJen - such an inordinate amount of fuss over almost nothing.

Where my Mum lives (a city but not London) the council still doesn't even collect glass for recycling.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by trinidad April 14, 06:48PM

tomskip, Ed and West Peckham are going to be hit by £125.00 a year to park on their road, and also going to have to pay £25.00 to have their garden waste emptied. It might be "inordinate amount of fuss over almost nothing" for you, but there are many questions which clearly need answering for many residents.

While residents have been told of the charge in the form of a letter, there has been little information with this charge which i am sure you can understand!!

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The hottest place in the world

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by herne hilly April 14, 07:48PM

I think there are a few things to note here:
1. Southwark council tax did increase quite a bit this year,between bands A-H it was anything from £40 - £115 increase.
So to be asked to stump up an additional £25 makes it hard to swallow.
2. I only have front garden beds but I am over shadowed by numerous london plane trees on the pavement and come autumn, i used to fill up a few brown bins just in leaves, that fall into my garden. So I don't need the bins for my own use, i'm not prepared to pay for a bin to dispose of council leaves. is it legal to sweep them back into the pavement winking smiley ?
3. The fact thats its one bin only is quite annoying if you do a lot of pruning, one bin can fill fast, so you'll have to wait to fill one bin each week.
4. There is the option of taking it to the old kent road dump - which is probably the option I will take, as it remains free .....for now !

On the council website, it says they will be collecting the brown bins a few weeks after June.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Peckhamgatecrasher April 14, 08:16PM

What's to stop unscrupulous peeps filling someone else's brown bin? Will Southwark provide locks?

Why did the Council send us all letters telling us we will be getting further letters?

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by cella April 14, 11:36PM

Sounds like nobody is clear about where the food waste goes so hopefully we will be notified at some point.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by herne hilly April 15, 09:34AM

[www.southwark.gov.uk]

FAQ from the website, details about food waste.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 15, 10:23AM

For completeness - I have also posted the message below on James Cash's councillor thread, as I would like a local councilor's opinion on this:-

I have now had a chance of reading full details of the council's planned garden waste scheme. It appears that in future even for those paying the £30 annual fee only a single brown bin of garden waste will be collected weekly. Any additional waste (in paid-for paper sacks) will have to be collected only by subsequent special arrangement with the council. My garden (and I'm not alone in this) gets 'blitzed' on a monthly basis March-December - and at some times - e.g. autumn - I generate far more green waste in such a blitz than I can reasonably compost ( most of my garden would become a compost heap). In the past I have had as many as 10 paper bags filled in addition to my brown bin. At the moment all the waste is collected at once, meaning that there is no need for an additional collection (with the costs that that entails). If residents are to either pay for sacks and/ or brown bin collection for garden waste surely the most efficient method of collection is to collect once a week from streets taking everything (which will have been paid for one way or another) at once. Otherwise my only conclusion is that the council is interested in reducing organic recycling - or encouraging people to e.g. pave or landscape more of their gardens away. Neither seem to me to be a 'green' approach.

We are being asked to pay for a service which was previously covered by Council Tax, and in paying for it, it is also being reduced. Taking away with one hand and then taking away with the other. And you wonder why we are cynical about politicians local and national?

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by 73jem April 15, 01:03PM

Thank you for setting out this problem much more clearly than I did a few posts ago. I also occasionally have too much for my brown bin and add in a paper sack or two.

It would be ridiculous, and bad economics, to send for a special collection just for the occasional sack, and these surely should be collected with the general brown bin collection as one will have paid for the paper sacks anyway.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by gumshoe April 15, 05:12PM

I requested a new brown bin at the weekend (we share ours with neighbours and as much as Iím unhappy with the charge and Southwarkís ludicrous reasoning behind it, I still want to continue green recycling) - turns out they wonít be supplying anymore until the charge is introduced.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred April 15, 06:16PM

What about our Christmas trees? Will we have to pay for that to be taken away?

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by cella April 15, 07:36PM

From the Southwark site it seems that the good waste bags continue to go into the big brown bins we already have. Thus surely means that the bin men have to look inside each bin to check which they don't have to now. Presumably if you don't subscribe but for whatever reason there is garden waste in there too none if it gets taken.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by trinidad April 15, 10:31PM

would you get a refund if there is a missed collection by veolia?

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The hottest place in the world

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by singalto April 16, 08:22AM

Celia, as far as I understand, brown bins which have not been paid for will be removed. As the lorry will still have to drive up and down all roads emptying the brown bins and the food caddies, I struggle to see how it will save money.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 16, 08:56AM

I requested a new brown bin at the weekend (we share ours with neighbours and as much as Iím unhappy with the charge and Southwarkís ludicrous reasoning behind it, I still want to continue green recycling) - turns out they wonít be supplying anymore until the charge is introduced.

Loathe as I am to giving any credit to Tooley St., but it does make sense to hold up issuing 'new' brown bins until they have gone through the exercise of collecting lots of old ones (they assume) which they can then re-issue - that at least is a reasonable approach to cost saving.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 16, 09:05AM

As the lorry will still have to drive up and down all roads emptying the brown bins and the food caddies, I struggle to see how it will save money.

I don't think this is being prayed-in-aid as a cost saving exercise as such, but as a way of introducing charges to the (minority) of residents in Southwark with gardens. I have already argued that this will in fact probably lose money in the first year of operation (when the costs of large bin recovery and small bin issue are taken into account) and will have a minimal impact (taking account increased admin costs and the costs of sending out special bin lorries to collect paper sacks) going forward - at least at the initial £30 p/a charge. [NB the large brown bins will originally have been costed in over their expected life-times - now to be substantially reduced by this early recovery].

I would however argue that this action (and others) are creating an environment when price hikes outside the normal community charge setting round (and outwith the controls and price cap on increasing community charges) will be only too possible.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by nxjen April 16, 09:34AM

The government cuts are forcing even the most Labour of councils to behave like Tories.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 16, 10:36AM

The government cuts are forcing even the most Labour of councils to behave like Tories.

By stinging 'the rich'? - I think you'll find that's always been Labour policy - I think I recall the late and very much lamented Dennis Healey making reference to 'pips squeaking' - if memory serves.

[wordhistories.net]

[socialistworker.co.uk]

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by dresswaves April 16, 10:52AM

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From the Southwark site it seems that the good
> waste bags continue to go into the big brown bins
> we already have. Thus surely means that the bin
> men have to look inside each bin to check which
> they don't have to now. Presumably if you don't
> subscribe but for whatever reason there is garden
> waste in there too none if it gets taken.

In the FAQ it clearly says that from 1st June food & garden waste must be separated. Food waste goes in the brown caddy. If you donít already have one they can be ordered & a kitchen caddy will also be supplied.


[www.southwark.gov.uk]

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 16, 11:11AM

If you donít already have one they can be ordered & a kitchen caddy will also be supplied.

This is, of course, yet another costly policy insanity. Most people with brown bins already have kitchen caddies - it will be the kerb-side caddy they mainly don't have. Logistics would suggest that it would be far cheaper to deliver a kerb-side caddy to everyone who now has a large brown bin - and to collect at the same time those bins which are no longer required for garden waste. The costs of administering an 'individual order' scheme far outweigh the cost of inadvertently supplying an additional kerb-side caddy to someone who already has one with their large garden waste bin, particularly when the process will give most people a kitchen caddy they don't need (as they will already have one).

This process only makes sense after the big 'change-over' when new residents come in requiring new services - when issuing the two food caddies together would make sense.

If you are going to make a huge change having somebody (anybody) who understands process flow and costs would seem a first port of call. But not for the boys in Tooley St., evidently.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by kristymac1 April 16, 11:26AM

I have just posted the following on James McCash's Councillor thread:
James,
In relation to the upcoming changes to collection of garden/food waste please can you confirm whether Southwark Council combines garden waste and food waste once collected? (either at the curb side or back at the depot)

If so, it seems utterly ludicrous that when I choose to subscribe to the £30/year brown bin collection that I will not be able to put food waste in there as well as garden waste (which is the system now), instead I will have to have ANOTHER plastic bin in my front garden just for food waste!

If the two compostable components are not combined at the curb side - does this really mean that Southwark will have 2 collection lorries attending the same property every week for the collection of compostable waste?

I am reasonably happy to pay the £30/year charge for brown bin collection - I am certainly not happy at the seemingly ill-thought through process and a complete waste of resources providing additional food waste bins and separate lorry collections - seriously, this is proper 'back of a fag packet' stuff and is an embarrassingly obvious waste of much needed Council resources.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 16, 11:55AM

If the two compostable components are not combined at the curb side - does this really mean that Southwark will have 2 collection lorries attending the same property every week for the collection of compostable waste?

Reading between the lines, I suspect that the garden waste collection frequency will at some time drop from weekly to some longer period, and may even be withdrawn in the winter months. The Veolia people on brown bins (the actual collection guys) certainly believe at the moment that they will be making a joint collection of food and garden waste together, but that may change.

The one watchword I will not go for is 'trust the council to get it right.' The evidence is that they won't (based on their wholly flawed logistics so far).

The actual process they should have followed is (1) get people to sign-up, or not, for garden waste collection - (2) issue bin stickers (for the large bins remaining) and (3) automatically supply kerb side caddies to all - (4) Then, and only then, change the collection process and (5) then collect unneeded large brown bins (to make sure no one is left without an organic waste collection method. The chances of them getting this sequence right is, frankly, minimal, based on their current logistics approach.

There will be many (the elderly, the disengaged) who, despite the one letter so far received will find ali this change as a shock and surprise. There is no evidence that anything has been factored in for this.

Which will, as I and others have indicated, actually incur additional and unnecessary cost to add to the council's money problems before any revenues will even kick-in. I suspect that they hope that Veolia will be forced to pick up an additional cost burden on all this - but even that company, prepared, to get the contract, to put up with a lot, may baulk at bailing Tooley St. out.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by snoopy17 April 16, 01:03PM

Can uou pay cash for this service?

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by singalto April 16, 03:59PM

One of the brown bin collection guys said the new system would cause huge problems and he thought that the number of lorries would be cut due to Ďa drop in usageí. Iím guessing the implication is job cuts.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 16, 04:39PM

Although if all the people who use the garden waste collection service continue, or a good number of them, the same work levels will operate.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by DulwichFox April 16, 04:49PM

So people unable to get rid of garden waste will Pave over their back yards or deck them.

There will be less plants and flowers which will affect our wild life, Birds, Butterflies Bees and insects.

Drainage will be badly affected too.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 16, 05:06PM

Can uou pay cash for this service?

I imagine you can buy the paper sacks for cash from an outlet, but the council suggests you can only pay for the brown bin service via credit (and I suppose debit) card, although they are examining a direct debit option for the future.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by cella April 16, 10:58PM

Ah, so the answer to the food waste is we put the bags in the tiny brown caddies and our large brown bins are taken away if we don't subscribe. Could not see that spelt out anywhere.

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