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messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 16, 11:55PM

Ah, so the answer to the food waste is we put the bags in the tiny brown caddies and our large brown bins are taken away if we don't subscribe. Could not see that spelt out anywhere.

No, I think they will issue, on request, 'kerb-side caddies' - with about 3-4 times the capacity of the tiny kitchen caddies. And you will not be able to put any kitchen waste in a large brown bin, even if you have retained one. They will now only be for garden waste.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by mynamehere April 17, 06:34AM

What a lot of plastic waste is being generated.

I thought biomass was being used for energy by Veolia. If so, charging for the one thing being put to good use seems... odd.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 17, 08:40AM

I thought biomass was being used for energy by Veolia. If so, charging for the one thing being put to good use seems... odd.

Veolia's finances and Southwark's are entirely separate. I assume Southwark, in determining the fee they pay Veolia will have factored in 'value' in the waste collected - of course if less garden waste is collected because of price rationing then Veolia may be able to claim a higher fee from Southwark for waste collection, depending on the terms of their outsourced deal. But the £30 annual fee is going to Southwark as a further tax on residents, it is not going to Veolia (although if they have to incur further costs by Southwark's action they may be able to be recompensed for that). Delivery of new bins and collection of old ones, if Veolia does that, will be charged out to Southwark, I'm sure, and reasonably. But Veolia's income streams, and Southwark's are connected only through the outsourcing fee paid by one to the other.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by EDBoy April 17, 11:07AM

Why did Southwark Council not wait until next year to implement this? Most residents have only just received their council tax bill for 2019/20, which makes this idea appear poorly thought out and executed. Why not say this is what we are planning to do next year and ask the 51,000 properties for their suggestions; these can then be submitted on a council web page. There should be one or two ideas that might be worth incorporating. A house with a garden would usually suggest there is more than one occupant, therefore will a kerbside caddy be sufficient for the food waste? What happens to any excess that can't put it in the brown bin properties currently have? What if my compost bin is full? If I don't want to pay for a large brown bin, what do I do if my wife receives flowers? If the council implement this charge for brown waste bins, when will they begin charging for the blue recycling bins and the green rubbish bins? Would be interesting to find out the percentage of 51,000 kerbside properties within the borough that don't make use of the garden waste service. I currently put food and garden waste together because they are both organic. Why not ask the properties if they require a brown bin and if they don't, remove it and replace with a kerbside caddy, for a one-off charge. Surely, the same Veolia truck will collect the same organic garden and food waste or, will there be one truck for each?

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by diable rouge April 17, 11:39AM

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So people unable to get rid of garden waste will
> Pave over their back yards or deck them.
>
> There will be less plants and flowers which will
> affect our wild life, Birds, Butterflies Bees and
> insects.

I doubt that anyone who has spent time creating a garden will then decide to pave/deck it over because of these changes, besides, the cost of paving/decking far outweighs the yearly cost of a brown bin, it would take many years to offset the cost. I expect the Council have factored this in and see gardeners as a soft target...

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by cella April 17, 01:34PM

Penguin68 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah, so the answer to the food waste is we put the
> bags in the tiny brown caddies and our large brown
> bins are taken away if we don't subscribe. Could
> not see that spelt out anywhere.
>
> No, I think they will issue, on request,
> 'kerb-side caddies' - with about 3-4 times the
> capacity of the tiny kitchen caddies. And you will
> not be able to put any kitchen waste in a large
> brown bin, even if you have retained one. They
> will now only be for garden waste.

Thanks - I too think that's what's meant. It doesn't actually spell that out anywhere though.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by James Barber April 18, 06:12AM

The letter the council has sent out states 51,000 street properties impacted. The income expected would not just pay for the garden waste collection but also the entire foo waste collections. Effectively this proposed scheme is a tax on some who volunteer for all the food waste collections.

Councils have a duty to collect Household Waste.
The legal definition of Household Waste appears to include - [app.croneri.co.uk] - waste from any land associated with domestic property
Domestic Waste is defined as only waste from "private homes". But the legal definition of Private Homes appears to include their gardens.
Looks like a minefield - perhaps no one has yet legally challenged the setting of such fees.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Penguin68 April 18, 09:37AM

The letter the council has sent out states 51,000 street properties impacted. The income expected would not just pay for the garden waste collection but also the entire foo waste collections. Effectively this proposed scheme is a tax on some who volunteer for all the food waste collections.

This assumes that all 51k households will opt for garden waste collection - generating an annual revenue of £1.53m. This accounts, as far as I can see, for under 10% of payments made to Veolia by Southwark (you can google for these though very up to date figures aren't available) - although these payments may cover more than just waste collection. Assuming Veolia costs are split 50:50 between organic waste and inorganic recycling/ non recyclables (as there are two collections a week) then that £1.53m covers under 20% of the costs of Organic recycling.

Southwark spends around £65m on current account for Environment and Regeneration, I'm guessing no more than a third or less on waste collection.

My guess is that the £1.53m will not cover all of Southwark's organic recycling waste collection - and that is assuming that everyone with a large brown bin will decide to pay the tax and keep their bins. And the practice of many other boroughs not to collect garden waste at all, or to charge for it, suggests that a court challenge to this would not fly.

This is not to support the proposal - which I think is ill-thought through and the processes for which appear to be stupid and costly - nor is it to support the council's clear desire to move as much revenue stream as it can off its Council Tax books to give it price-hike freedom, but I think you may have over-egged the pudding here in your analysis. Happy to stand corrected if you have access (or had access) to better Veolia contract cost figures.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by James Barber April 21, 09:40PM

No, Southwark Labour/Council are not expecting all homes with gardens to pay for garden waste.

Stats I've een is average cost to collect waste per household per annum = £38.62 and all recycling types = £26.53 across England. So presumably being an urban area Southwark spends less than these averages. So the charge of £30 would be roughly the cost each household incurs for all recycling collections. The charge therefore appears to be far higher than the cost of the service provided.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by dc April 21, 11:36PM

So why was LibDem Kingston one of the first Boroughs in London to introduce such a charge and why is their fee (£72) almost two and a half times that proposed by Southwark? Please donít treat us like children and do a ďletís pretendĒ that your lot wouldnít have done the same if the electors of this fine borough had seen fit to put their trust in you and your mates last May.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by cella April 21, 11:39PM

Rude.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by dc April 21, 11:45PM

Factual, and worthy of a considered response.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by cella April 22, 12:28AM

Possibly however a more courteous manner may result in you actually getting an answer.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by dc April 22, 09:47AM

I raised it already. My point is there is little correlation between the introduction of this charge and the political control of local authorities and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise. There are 3 LibDem controlled councils in London and they all charge for garden waste collection. Kingston, as detailed above, Sutton which charges £65 pa and Richmond where you have to buy a designated bin for £28 and there is then an ongoing charge of £35 every six months (or £26 every six months if youíre over 75).

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by matthew123 April 22, 02:19PM

I hope these people who come up with these ideas at the council are not getting a pay rise out of this ridiculous add on tax - yes there may be people who don't use garden waste but surely that is already reflected in the council tax bandings where you tend to have a bigger garden the higher the tax banding.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by James Barber April 22, 03:54PM

Hi dc,
I've never lived or represented Kingston, Sutton, or Richmond. So I don't know their circumstances.

I would suggest most of Southwark is poorer than the boroughs you've quoted. It has higher levels of eco crime already.
So in Southwark my lot would not introduce this charge - it will depress the collection rate, some garden waste will end up in general waste stream and not be composted. This is bad for the environment in a number of ways.

But I'm unclear dc.
Do you think it the right thing to do in Southwark?
The introduction has no exceptions for people on benefits, low incomes, age, disability, anything. It's a regressive tax. It will hit people in ground floor council flats with tiny gardens. Easy to avoid the charge for those willing to put garden waste in the general green waste wheelie bins. It will collect more than the cost of all recycling collections per household that join in.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by macutd April 22, 05:40PM

is it ok to use the general waste bin for a little garden least? say grass cutting

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Abe_froeman April 23, 10:51AM

You'd probably have to put your mowings in a plastic bag now .

To be fair to James B, I don't recall this bin tax ever being proposed when he was a councillor so it seems very harsh to say that he would propose it now.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by nxjen April 23, 11:51AM

The LibDems however have never been in overall control of Southwark Council, the closest was during the years 2002 to 2010 when they held nearly the same amount of seats as Labour. This was of course before the severe cuts to local government funding by central government so he/LibDems was not in a position to propose such a charge (a charge not a tax). I think in the present climate that if there was a LibDem Southwark Council it would be highly likely they would introduce charges for brown bin collection no matter what James B says. Ah, but heís a politician, promises the world to get elected.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was april 23, 11:53am by nxjen.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Rosetta April 23, 12:02PM

Wonder if more people will start burning their garden waste.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by JohnL April 23, 12:39PM

Rosetta Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wonder if more people will start burning their
> garden waste.

Compost heap - if you have a garden with room surely.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by Rosetta April 23, 12:45PM

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rosetta Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Wonder if more people will start burning their
> > garden waste.
>
> Compost heap - if you have a garden with room
> surely.

Can you compost hedge branches?

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by easytiger April 23, 04:49PM

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was may 04, 09:58pm by easytiger.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by tomskip April 23, 07:01PM

£30.00 p/a. £1.15 every two weeks to have a brown wheelie bin full of garden waste taken away. Doesn't seem bad value to me.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by cella April 23, 11:05PM

nxjen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The LibDems however have never been in overall
> control of Southwark Council, the closest was
> during the years 2002 to 2010 when they held
> nearly the same amount of seats as Labour. This
> was of course before the severe cuts to local
> government funding by central government so
> he/LibDems was not in a position to propose such a
> charge (a charge not a tax). I think in the
> present climate that if there was a LibDem
> Southwark Council it would be highly likely they
> would introduce charges for brown bin collection
> no matter what James B says. Ah, but heís a
> politician, promises the world to get elected.

Very cynical and pure speculation.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by nxjen April 24, 05:02AM

Of course itís speculation, as the possibility of the LibDems achieving a majority in Southwark Council which would enable them to bring in such measures is purely hypothetical, it canít be anything else and whether Iím correct with my thesis will never be put to the test. A lot of conversation and what you read on the internet is a mixture of fact, opinion, speculation, wishful thinking and downright misinformation. And letís not forget electioneering.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was april 24, 07:02am by nxjen.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by herne hilly April 24, 08:50AM

tomskip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> £30.00 p/a. £1.15 every two weeks to have a brown
> wheelie bin full of garden waste taken away.
> Doesn't seem bad value to me.


Lambeth have been charging for some years, I think it also started at £30 and is now up to over £60.
For me, its not that the charge is to much, its just something i feel should be covered by the council tax especially as its increased. I understand people in flats don't have gardens and those with gardens should pay, but i never had children so should I get a discount for never using local schools. We all pay our council tax for the running of our borough and keeping it clean and tidy should be done to them.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by KidKruger April 24, 09:09AM

It smells of soon there will soon be a long list of things we pay for in addition to council tax, things which previously were covered BY council tax.
The obvious question remaining WHAT does council tax actually cover, if we're eventually paying additionally for schools, street cleaning, police, parks maintenance, council wages, hospitals, etc.

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by nxjen April 24, 09:16AM

ďThe obvious question remaining WHAT does council tax actually cover, if we're eventually paying additionally for schools, street cleaning, police, parks maintenance, council wages, hospitals, etc.Ē

Has there been any suggestion that these things will incur charges in addition to what is already paid through Council Tax?

messageRe: Brown bin collection - Council starting to charge?
Posted by DulwichFox May 02, 11:21AM

I no longer have a car so cannot take my garden waste to the Devon Street Depot.
Ironic that in an attempt to clean up the air I am faced with this dilemma.

My garden is tiny. Much of it paved and partially decked.
I have a Strip of soil down each side which needs to be tidied up from time to time.

Enough to fill my Brown Bin 2 - 3 times a year. But it has to be done. It needs doing now,

How do I actually pay the £30.00 and get to keep my Brown Bin and get it emptied, ??

DulwichFox

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