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The East Dulwich Forum
The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by RichH May 15, 02:25PM

Buses are slow because, like dustbin lorries, they have to stop every few yards to pick up the garbage big grin

I just made up that joke. If it's found to be original then any budding stand-ups here can have it for free.

You're welcome!

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Bic Basher May 15, 05:27PM

exdulwicher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bic Basher Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Apparently the 20mph speed limit will be
> > introduced to TfL managed roads in the near
> > future. This would include the section of LL
> > between Melford Road and Wood Vale, along with
> > major trunk roads such as the A23, Old Kent
> Road,
> > North/South Circular etc.
> >
> > As a bus user, the service has got worse since
> the
> > speed reduction. It can take 20 mins to get
> from
> > the Horniman end of LL to Dog Kennel Hill
> off-peak
> > when traffic is light. Not helped by the
> > enforcement of gaps in the service where
> drivers
> > are instructed to wait at bus stops.
>
> TfL's documentation on it:
> content.tfl.gov.uk/speed-emissions-and-health.pdf
>
> Lower speed limits means a shift to more walking
> and cycling, so fewer car journeys. And therefore
> the buses can get around more easily. Buses are
> only held up by crap driving, parked cars in bus
> lanes, too many cars on the road. Get rid of most
> of that and you get nice clear bus lanes.


IMHO traffic is only a small issue. The roads are largely clear in ED outside the rush hour and yet buses drive at a snail's pace.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Zebedee Tring May 16, 11:40AM

RichH, so you think that bus passengers are "garbage"? I suppose that you agree with Margaret Thatcher that anyone over 30 who uses a bus is a failure. If so I am glad to be a "failure" in your eyes.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah May 16, 11:49AM

There is a new TFL map that shows all the Satander docking stations and all the cycle superhighways. It mirrors the tube map in that the whole of London is covered except for a massive hole over SE London. It's just not good enough. Why is there such a dearth of transport infrastructure in SE compared to every other comparable part of the Capital?

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah May 16, 11:51AM

... All this talk of healthy streets and encouraging people out of their cars means nothing without proper efforts to bring SE London 'up to standard' in terms of public transport.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by wulfhound May 16, 01:46PM

Boroughs have to contribute to the cost of the Santander scheme and Southwark have largely chosen not to.

They did have Ofo dockless bikes for a bit but the company withdrew after large scale theft and vandalism.

I'm not sure the Santander bikes would do well south of Peckham or so - they're disproportionately heavy and struggle on anything resembling a hill. The cycle superhighway that was originally supposed to run via East Dulwich to Penge was of very low quality - little more than stripes of paint along Lordship Lane and across the top of Dog Kennel Hill. A far cry from what's been built in the last couple of years, but hard to see how they could install something of that standard along LL without a massive outcry over lost parking etc.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah May 17, 09:32AM

@wulfhound - but without improvements to public transport / alternative transport infrastructure, there simply isn't going to be a step change in the way people commute.

Re. Santander bikes - they would be pretty useful for getting to Brixton tube from ED, or for getting to Oval / Kennington / Elephant from Camberwell or Peckham. This might help reduce the number of people driving into Central London. Instead Southwark seem to think the answer is speed bumps !?!?

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah May 17, 09:36AM

... or, there is loads of space around Elephant tube and a lot of development (with Section 106 to be leveraged); Southwark could have built a secure bike park like the one at Finsbury Park. Lambeth could easily have done something similar at Brixton (where again, there is a lot of planning gain to be used).

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by JohnL May 17, 01:57PM

Those green bikes seem to have engines.

[www.wired.co.uk]

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by goldilocks May 18, 09:34AM

Not engines, batteries! They’re electric assist. You still pedal but it helps, especially with hills or not being all sweaty when you arrive at your destination. Becoming increasingly popular in other countries as a way of encouraging people to cycle longer distances or for older people or those with health issues. Definitely not an engine though.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah May 20, 02:20PM

goldilocks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not engines, batteries! They’re electric assist.
> You still pedal but it helps, especially with
> hills or not being all sweaty when you arrive at
> your destination. Becoming increasingly popular in
> other countries as a way of encouraging people to
> cycle longer distances or for older people or
> those with health issues. Definitely not an
> engine though.

... but again, they don't come to SE London (like nearly all significant new transport infrastructure).

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by JohnL May 20, 03:07PM

goldilocks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not engines, batteries! They’re electric assist.
> You still pedal but it helps, especially with
> hills or not being all sweaty when you arrive at
> your destination. Becoming increasingly popular in
> other countries as a way of encouraging people to
> cycle longer distances or for older people or
> those with health issues. Definitely not an
> engine though.

I meant electric motor smiling smiley

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by wulfhound May 20, 04:56PM

rahrahrah - yes they do, have seen them around the area recently although not in any great numbers yet.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by goldilocks May 20, 05:33PM

There was one outside Alleyns for a few days a while back. I have no idea how they spread them out though- ie are they just moved around by people hiring them and leaving them on the basis that they’re dockless

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by seenbeen May 20, 07:42PM

RichH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Buses are slow because, like dustbin lorries, they
> have to stop every few yards to pick up the
> garbage big grin
>
> I just made up that joke. If it's found to be
> original then any budding stand-ups here can have
> it for free.
>
> You're welcome!

Obviously from the Danny Baker School of Comedy!

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Sally Eva Yesterday, 07:23AM

there is a great deal of bike parking at the Elephant and Castle around the back of the Bakerloo station. The whole area is covered 24/7 by South Bank Uni security who have people on the road between the University buildings (which is part of a major cycle route)

Anyone wanting advice or assistance to do this journey by bike should email southwark@lcc.org.uk (can be slow) tweet @southwarkcycle or text 07842 640 207

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... or, there is loads of space around Elephant
> tube and a lot of development (with Section 106 to
> be leveraged); Southwark could have built a secure
> bike park like the one at Finsbury Park. Lambeth
> could easily have done something similar at
> Brixton (where again, there is a lot of planning
> gain to be used).

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah Yesterday, 02:19PM

wulfhound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rahrahrah - yes they do, have seen them around the
> area recently although not in any great numbers
> yet.

Fair enough, for some reason I thought that they were only operating across a few boroughs - I stand corrected.

I have already seen a couple of nicked Limes, with the batteries removed locally - but not spotted any 'legit' ones yet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was yesterday, 02:21pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichLondoner Yesterday, 05:20PM

malumbu Wrote:

> I did some research a few years ago based on the
> ksi (killed and seriously injured) published by
> DfT. Cyclists causing injury to pedestrians is
> pretty rare and the data does not say who is at
> fault

I am not particularly worried about cyclists injuring or killing other road users.

I am VERY worried about cyclists doing something terribly stupid and borderline suicidal next to my car or motorcycle, them getting hurt, and me taking the blame. E.g. every time a cyclist tries to undertake me when I'm about to turn. I think Darwinian selection is a wonderful thing - I'd just wish these people darwinianly selected themselves without involving me.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichLondoner Yesterday, 05:23PM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A 20mph restriction makes roads for drivers and
> pedestrians safer.

Says who? There were a few discussions about 2 years ago here, on how there were lots of different studies with inconclusive results. Sure, being hit at 20 mph is better than being hit at 30 mph, but there has been little to no actual conclusive evidence that 20mph zones mean fewer accidents. I also wonder about the impact on pollution: at rush hour the 20mph limit probably makes no difference to total journey times, but it does at night. Is it really better to have an engine on the road for longer?

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by exdulwicher Yesterday, 06:59PM

DulwichLondoner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KidKruger Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A 20mph restriction makes roads for drivers and
> > pedestrians safer.
>
> Says who? There were a few discussions about 2
> years ago here, on how there were lots of
> different studies with inconclusive results. Sure,
> being hit at 20 mph is better than being hit at 30
> mph, but there has been little to no actual
> conclusive evidence that 20mph zones mean fewer
> accidents.

There's a whole host of studies out there although not many yet have significant primary data around traffic volumes, pollution levels because the zones haven't been in place for long enough.
There's the other factor that different places in Britain have different transport policies, road design, population density etc and what works in one area might not be as beneficial in another so getting actual nationally applicable data out of it is quite difficult.

A lot of the time 20mph zones are put in place alongside other measures (like closing off rat runs, making parking residents only, making some streets one-way) so it's not always possible to tell if any reduction in injuries, deaths, collisions etc was the result of a 20mph limit or some other factor. If you close a road to through traffic then fairly logically there'll be far fewer collisions on it but that's not necessarily anything to do with the 20mph limit that now applies on there!

> I also wonder about the impact on
> pollution: at rush hour the 20mph limit probably
> makes no difference to total journey times, but it
> does at night. Is it really better to have an
> engine on the road for longer?

Pollution isn't just the emissions from the engine. It's noise pollution (slower speeds = less noise) and particulates from tyres, brakes (slower speeds = less wear and tear). again though, that only applies if the vehicle is being driven sensibly. Slowing to a crawl for a speed hump, traffic island or speed camera, flooring it away, repeating is clearly worse for pollution than driving at a steady 20mph but that's a factor of the idiot behind the wheel, not the policy itself.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by KidKruger Yesterday, 09:31PM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A 20mph restriction makes roads for drivers and
> pedestrians safer.

Says who?

Says me.
As a driver, pedestrian and cyclist.
I pulled-over a moped guy last night for going too fast on CP Rd, it’s s 20mph zone and he was taking the piss with his speed.
Bizarrely he agreed, and apologised !

messageRe: 20 mph limit?attachment
Posted by Sally Eva Today, 07:24AM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KidKruger Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A 20mph restriction makes roads for drivers and
>
> > pedestrians safer.
>
> Says who?
>
> Says me.
> As a driver, pedestrian and cyclist.
> I pulled-over a moped guy last night for going too
> fast on CP Rd, it’s s 20mph zone and he was taking
> the piss with his speed.
> Bizarrely he agreed, and apologised !

This can be an enjoyable occupation carried out under police protection. It's called Community Speedwatch and is organised jointly by the Met, TfL and members of the community (ie you and/or ANO).

You (the volunteer or ANO) is trained to use a speedgun. You have to wear hi-vis and stand in a prominent position (must give these speeders a chance) and then call out the numbers you see on the gun to the policeman who writes them down with the make and registration no of the vehicle.

Drivers then get rude letters about the calibre of their driving and warnings to improve it.

To join in email kevin.j.phillips@met.police.uk. His photo is attached. He's a very nice, affable guy with a strong desire to protect the elderly, vulnerable and children by improving standards on the roads.

Attachments: kevin phillips.JPG (61.3KB)  
messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by spider69 Today, 08:28AM

Do they do the same procedure to cyclists or are they exempt?

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Asset Today, 08:33AM

*sigh*

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Penguin68 Today, 08:40AM

Do they do the same procedure to cyclists or are they exempt?

Cyclists carry no marks of identity to allow any follow-up. Perhaps more relevant - do they also follow up on buses which speed - I have certainly seen some on Barry managing quite a lick, considering that they have lights and stops to hold them up.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichLondoner Today, 09:58AM

KidKruger Wrote:
> > A 20mph restriction makes roads for drivers and
>
> > pedestrians safer.
>
> Says who?
>
> Says me.
> As a driver, pedestrian and cyclist.

It's hard to argue with such a well-explained argument. But let me try...

The Department for Transport commissioned a long study into 20mph limits. The results were published about 6 months ago.

First of all, why did so many councils rush to introduce 20mph limits BEFORE this study was concluded?
It's hard to shake off the suspicion they thought the study would not support the new limits, so they wanted to introduce them first - because by now it would be very messy and expensive to remove them.

In summary, the study says that it is INCONCLUSIVE whether 20mph limits really make roads safer. There was a reduction in one case (Brighton), but in all other cases the results were inconclusive. There are also lots of caveats about extrapolating the Brighton results more generally

Don't take my word for it - go to the source:
[www.gov.uk]

Page 66 of the headline report:
– This study has found no significant safety outcome (in terms of
collisions and casualties) in residential areas, based on the post implementation data available to date. Due
to the small sample sizes and variability in the data, the statistical analysis undertaken to date indicates that
the real change could be positive or negative. In addition, it has not been possible to draw any conclusions
regarding the relative change in fatal injuries, cycle casualties, and casualties involving older people.
In the case of both the residential and city centre case studies, further data is required to determine the longterm impact of 20mph limits. Collision and casualty rates are known to fluctuate from year to year, and the
post implementation data currently available may not be indicative of the longer-term trend.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Penguin68 Today, 10:25AM

...So, the jury is still out. However I think there are no doubts that impacts on pedestrians or cyclists at 20mph are likely to be less severe than at 30mph. Physics alone demonstrates that. [Older vehicles with less forgiving construction - less 'crumple zone' - will of course always be more injurious than modern vehicles, at any given speed.] Additionally a slower moving vehicle logically must give greater decision time to others using the road.

So I have no problems in believing that a 20mph limit is likely (everything else being equal, which it rarely is) and if adhered to to be making a positive contribution to road safety, if measured in the severity and possibly frequency of accidents.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichLondoner Today, 10:52AM

Penguin68 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...So, the jury is still out. However I think
> there are no doubts that impacts on pedestrians or
> cyclists at 20mph are likely to be less severe
> than at 30mph.

Of course, that is self-evident. It is also not the whole story.

Is there any downside? E.g. is it an incentive for pedestrians to cross dangerously in the middle of the road, even if there is a traffic light 100 yards away (or precisely because there is one and they don't want to wait)?

How much does the introduction of 20mph limits cost? How else could this money have been spent? I think Lambeth or Southwark spent something like £700-800k. How many potholes could have been fixed? How many injuries (especially of cyclists) are instead caused by potholes?

Etc etc etc.

No such assessment was ever done. There was an ideological drive to push the 20mph limits, with no kind of cost benefit analysis.

Also, what is the environmental impact of travelling at 20mph vs 30? At rush hour probably not much, but outside rush hour, at night, etc? I genuinely do not know. The report says that another study is being done and will be completed around 2020.

I am very worried when ideology trumps facts.

At the very least we should acknowledge that the jury is still out, and that all the claims made by the councils about the "clear benefits" were all bull**** - nothing is clear, in fact.

Similar story for cycle superhighways: where's the cost benefit analysis?
The Transport watchdog complained they would increase journey times for busses, but was ignored. Detractors claims the cycle lanes are empty outside of the 7.30 - 9.30 am peak time, but cause congestion the rest of the day (especially where bus lanes were removed to make way for them).
This is my impression, too, but I don't know for sure. Why didn't TFL monitor usage throughout the day before rolling out new cycle superhighways? It would not have been particularly difficult nor expensive.

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