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The East Dulwich Forum
Would you recommend your East Dulwich doctor, dentist or butcher?
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messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by renard 23 May, 2019 00:14

> Page 66 of the headline report:
> Ė This study has found no significant safety
> outcome (in terms of
> collisions and casualties) in residential areas,
> based on the post implementation data available to
> date. Due
> to the small sample sizes and variability in the
> data, the statistical analysis undertaken to date
> indicates that
> the real change could be positive or negative. In
> addition, it has not been possible to draw any
> conclusions
> regarding the relative change in fatal injuries,
> cycle casualties, and casualties involving older
> people.
> In the case of both the residential and city
> centre case studies, further data is required to
> determine the longterm impact of 20mph limits.
> Collision and casualty rates are known to
> fluctuate from year to year, and the
> post implementation data currently available may
> not be indicative of the longer-term trend.


This particular study couldn't give any conclusive evidence because of lack of data and also because the vast majority of drivers were not respecting that limit anyway on the 20mph zones (86% of them!).

It's a report on the impact of their implementations in these area (the 20mph signposts)- it's not a safety study of the actual speed (of course 20mph is safer!).

Personally I think it's probably time to enforce these limits more strictly.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichLondoner 23 May, 2019 10:22

renard Wrote:

> It's a report on the impact of their
> implementations in these area (the 20mph
> signposts)-

Of course - that's the whole point of the study!

>it's not a safety study of the actual
> speed (of course 20mph is safer!).

Yes, that is banally self-evident. It is also NOT the point. Yes, being hit at 20mph is better than being hit at 30mph. And being hit at 10 is better than being hit at 20. So where do we set the limit and why? 10? 15? 20? 25? 30?

The answer to this question should be based on a study like the DfT's one, which looks at the situation as a whole.

How many accidents are caused by speeds > 30mph? Clearly all the accidents caused by drunk driving, by cars reversing, or any low-speed accident would not be affected by the speed limit.

What are the key factors determining accidents? Is it just speed? Road quality (eg potholes)? Road layout?

Are there any downsides to 20mph limits?
Are pedestrians incentivised to cross like suicidal idiots if the limit is 20mph?
What is the environmental impact of cars going slower and journeys taking longer (at least outside of rush hour)? A study on this is underway and should be completed next year, as the DfT report mentions.
How much does it cost to introduce 20mph limits? How else could that money have been spent and which is the best use of that money?

I do not have the answers to all these questions. But I think we need them before deciding what to do. Otherwise it's just blind ideology with no connection whatsoever to facts and evidence.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by exdulwicher 23 May, 2019 11:29

Quote:
What is the environmental impact of cars going slower and journeys taking longer (at least outside of rush hour)? A study on this is underway and should be completed next year, as the DfT report mentions.

A few factors:
More than half of all car trips are under 5 miles:
[www.licencebureau.co.uk]

So taking that into account and doing some basic distance / speed / time calculations:

1 mile at 20mph: 3 mins
1 mile at 30mph: 2 mins


2 miles at 20mph: 6 mins
2 miles at 30mph: 4 mins


3 miles at 20mph: 9 mins
3 miles at 30mph: 6 mins

4 miles at 20mph: 12 mins
4 miles at 30mph: 8 mins


So over a 4 miles journey driven at a steady 20mph, you'll take 4 minutes longer than doing the exact same journey at a steady 30mph. But that's never the whole story because no journey is ever done like that. Junctions, traffic, road layout etc all mean that you're never cruising at a steady 20 (or 30), it's constantly up and down between zero (at traffic lights for example) and the maximum (assuming for a moment that we're all model drivers that never break the speed limit!) and the actual time spent near the maximum is often very low.

I don't have any data for it but I'd hazard a guess that in real-world conditions, the actual time taken on an urban journey is actually very similar no matter what the maximum speed limit is. Be interesting to come up with a few journeys of (say) 3 miles and try driving them. Two vehicles leaving at the same time, one never exceeding 20mph, one never exceeding 30mph. See what the actual difference in time is at the destination.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichLondoner 23 May, 2019 12:18

The fact that the average journey is short is a technically true but practically often irrelevant piece of information the cycle lobby loves to spit out whenever it can, typically to claim that more people should use pushbikes and that therefore more road space should be given to bikes. Thatís total complete utter nonsense. A TFL report on the topic also said that, surprise surprise, both car ownership and car usage were much lower in inner vs outer London.

If you live in certain parts of zones 3-6, or of Surrey/Kent, just inside or just outside the M25, you often need the car even only to go to the supermarket, or to take kids to school, or to go to the train station. You often donít have an alternative. If you live in zone 1 and take the car everywhere, by all means, that kind of use should be penalised, but just looking at the average journey, as if it were representative, is totally misleading.

Back to your point. First of all I said from the beginning that, at rush hour, I would expect 20mph limits to make little to no difference. You seem to focus on the little inconvenience that would probably derive from lower limits. I was trying to focus on the environmental impact. Yes, if our journeys only take a few minutes more itís not the end of the world. But how much is that in %? If every journey outside of rush hour takes, say, 20-30% longer, thatís car engines being on and polluting for 20-30% more time. What is the environmental impact of that? I do not know, but I think this point should have been addressed before rolling out 20mph limits eft right and centre. Sadly, it wasnít.

The inconvenience is probably for those drivers that need to drive, outside rush hour, longer-than-average routes that must pass through the centre of London, e.g. many east to west or south to north routes. Think of all kinds of vans, delivery vehicles, HGVs, etc. I am not of these drivers, but, if I were, Iíd be furious.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by exdulwicher 23 May, 2019 13:11

I wasn't making any claim on that at all, my post was solely about journey times. You can find the stat about car usage / journey lengths from the Office of National Statistics.

I'm not "cycle lobby". I walk, ride a bike (my own and Santander Cycles), I use trains, Underground and buses and I own and drive a car. I just pick whichever method happens to be most convenient and appropriate for the time and place. I'm just in favour of people getting around efficiently. If it can be done in ways that minimise pollution and danger then so much the better.

As per my last paragraph, I would be genuinely interested in seeing some real-world data about the differences in time it actually takes to do an average urban journey around East Dulwich with a max speed of 20 and a max of 30. If there was a relatively convenient way of measuring pollution during that time, that would make the test even more useful.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichLondoner 23 May, 2019 13:25

So you are in favour of 20mph limits even though you have no idea:

if they really reduce accidents (the DfT report says the evidence is inconclusive)

what the environmental impact of longer journeys is

if that money could have been spent elsewhere (eg improving roads / potholes /new road layouts).

Remind me, then, WHY are you in favour of the 20mph limits?? What's your thought process?

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by exdulwicher 23 May, 2019 16:21

DulwichLondoner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Remind me, then, WHY are you in favour of the
> 20mph limits?? What's your thought process?

At no point in any of the previous 3 pages have I specifically said "I am in favour of them". I've highlighted some of the (alleged) positives behind them, linked to some reports - one of which specifically mentions that putting them in is largely pointless since about 80% of drivers routinely ignore/flaunt the limit) and pointed out a couple of times the fact that 20mph zones are rarely put in as a single item.

Done well, they should be done in conjunction with other measures like closing off rat-runs, making parking residents only and so on.

Same things with ASL (the advanced stop lines for bicycles). Done well, they incorporate advance lights for bicycles (like at the junction of Greendale / East Dulwich Grove / Townley Road). Done badly, it's just a strip of paint that puts bicycles at front of an F1 starting grid of impatient drivers...

I'm in favour of transport schemes being done well. A half arsed system does no-one any favours. I can see the positive arguments for 20mph. I can see the limitations (like trying to do it without enforcement where pretty much everyone ignores it).

If you look on the thread about a proposed pedestrian crossing at Harvester / South Circ junction, you'll see reports of routine red light running by drivers. That's another example of a traffic scheme done badly. I think we're all in favour of traffic lights but I also think we all get frustrated at badly planned set-ups - those ones with a fleetingly short green light or ones where you sit there for ages while empty lanes get green lights. And therefore you get non-compliance, complaints etc (slight digression to make the point).

But at no point did I say "I am in favour of 20mph zones, East Dulwich should have them everywhere". I do like the discussion though, it's raised interesting points on both sides including yours about increased time on the roads. And again, I'm happy to state that I have no idea of the effect - it would be very interesting to conduct some tests though.

Cheers

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichLondoner 23 May, 2019 16:36

exdulwicher Wrote:
>
> At no point in any of the previous 3 pages have I
> specifically said "I am in favour of them".

exdulwicher, I confused you with the other user who replied "says me". I apologise!

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by ashleywlkr 23 May, 2019 17:21

I was very nearly injured yesterday when a BMW sped past my drive as I was pulling out in my car. he was travelling in excess of 50/60mph.
I live on lordship lane, between the lordship and the plough pubs, busses, cars, lorries, all vehicles speed on that part of the road.... it's only a matter of time before someone it seriously injured.

Speed cameras/average speed checks ought to be put in place. sped calming measures, such as speed bumps, and other things, I think should probably be resorted to if all else fails, as they are mostly disruptive, and on the wobbly ground will make houses shake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:05:23:17:28:58 by ashleywlkr.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichLondoner 23 May, 2019 17:38

ashleywlkr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was very nearly injured yesterday when a BMW
> sped past my drive as I was pulling out in my car.
> he was travelling in excess of 50/60mph.

Sorry to hear that. However, that has little to do with 20 mph. A reckless driver will continue to be reckless regardless of speed limits.

In fact, the most sensible argument I can think of for 20mph limits is that, maybe, with 30mph limits many people may speed up to 4, so with 20mph many people may speed up to 30...

What is the tolerance for speed tickets? On many analog speedometers it is virtually impossible to distinguish 20 vs, say, 22 mph; would 22 mph in a 20 zone mean a ticket? Possibly points on the licence?

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by exdulwicher 24 May, 2019 11:21

DulwichLondoner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> exdulwicher Wrote:
> >
> > At no point in any of the previous 3 pages have
> I
> > specifically said "I am in favour of them".
>
> exdulwicher, I confused you with the other user
> who replied "says me". I apologise!


No probs @DulwichLondoner!


Also, look what I found:

[movement.uber.com][tpb]=ALL_DAY&dt[wd;]=1,2,3,4,5,6,7&dt[dr][sd]=2018-01-01&dt[dr][ed]=2018-01-31&ff=

That's a speed map of Uber journeys - you can choose a city, choose a date range and the info you want to see (I've selected Average Speed) and then just hover the mouse over a road and it shows you average speeds for certain times of day 9again, selectable). Not really had time for a full play around with it but it's certianly got info around East Dulwich. tells you how much of the journey was free-flow and how much was heavy traffic.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichLondoner 24 May, 2019 15:23

That's interesting. I have, in fact, often wondered if we have too many minicabs, and if reducing the number wouldn't improve congestion and pollution, especially in zone 1. Minicabs are currently exempt from the congestion charge - whereas in fact they should pay a much higher congestion charge than an ordinary car, I'd think.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah 30 May, 2019 10:22

Electric Uber bikes now operating in London (but not in SE London / Southwark obvs).

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by exdulwicher 05 June, 2019 21:57

[www.bbc.co.uk]

News item about TfL's consultation on a plan to roll out 20mph across TfL-managed roads in London over the next few years.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by jonnywalker 06 June, 2019 11:44

Fact is nobody really cares about the 20mph limit as the police never enforce it. If you drive at 20mph anywhere in London including Southwark you have cars inches from the rear trying to pressure you into going faster. EVERY bus that goes past our house - 343 484 P12 goes way in excess of 30mph down tight residential streets completely ignoring the speed limit. I've been on buses and asked the driver to slow down only to be arrogantly dismissed. If TFL are to introduce this limit London wide then hopefully they'll put limiters on their buses.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by ed_pete 06 June, 2019 13:12

Agreed. I've seen no change in drivers attitudes (including my own) to the 20mph limit and police numbers are too thin to bother. Interestingly the City of London Corporation are proposing a 15mph limit.
[londonist.com]

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah 19 October, 2019 12:18

Anyone know whether the Lime bikes are going to be extended to ED? The parking zone currently stops at Camberwell.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by sandyman 19 October, 2019 14:38

I just saw two parked outside Franklins!

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone know whether the Lime bikes are going to be
> extended to ED? The parking zone currently stops
> at Camberwell.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by rahrahrah 21 October, 2019 14:15

sandyman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just saw two parked outside Franklins!
>
> rahrahrah Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Anyone know whether the Lime bikes are going to
> be
> > extended to ED? The parking zone currently
> stops
> > at Camberwell.

Yeah, it's not in the parking zone though. The peeps who left them there risk a fine / or ban.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Mahogany Rush Steve 23 October, 2019 17:16

If it hasn't already been said,
I was checking on line about speeding and the police can enforce the speed limit even if you are 1mph over the limit, and the fine worked out on how much over the limit and on what you earn.
Check here for more info [www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk]

From what I have heard, most police forces do not have to enforce the 20mph, but I would imagine that it depends on how many accidents happen within the areas that they apply in.

rollflick said, QUOTE "Though police (or speed cameras) won't normally enforce unless you're going at 10%+2mph over a speed limit, they will in certain circumstances."

I believe that government "advised" the 10%+2mph idea, but that the police are within their rights to still book you at 1mph over the speed limit and fines work on a sliding scale.

I know of two people that have been done for being 1mph over the limit.

Community Speed Watch work to the 10%+2mph but this means that at 30mph 10% = 33 + 2mph = 35, so to not get clocked you must be at least at 34mph, if you are doing 35mph you will get clocked.

However Community Speed Watch will not get you a speeding ticket, you will be contacted by the police to tell you that you were speeding, if you get reported a second time will likely result in a knock on the door from the police & your registration will be put on to the police database, and this will mean that any community speed watch nationwide reporting a third offence, will likely get the driver a fine and points or the option of a speed awareness course, where you will pay the equivalent of the fine to go on the course, but receive no points, so at least you won't have to tell your insurance company.
If you have already been on a speed awareness course within the last 3 years, you will not be able to opt for that choice again and will get a fine and points.

That said, depending on your insurance company, if you have an accident they may say that you should have told them about the speed awareness course, and try to void your policy.

Just an after thought knowing how insurance companies like to try and avoid paying out when they can!

My 2 pence worth on this, if I can slow down to drive through your village or area, then you can do the same when you drive through mine!

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Pugwash 23 October, 2019 18:15

Having done a couple of the community speed watch sessions with the police, anything of 25 mph - your registration and make of car is noted and placed on data base as previously stated. Everything else is as previous post states.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by Huggers January 11, 03:00PM

I have just had a notice for speeding at 24mph in 20mph limit.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by bob January 11, 03:37PM

Got done for 26 miles an hour going up Sydenham hill



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was january 11, 05:27pm by bob.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by SpringTime January 11, 04:54PM

20mph speed cameras working on Sydenham Hill, Peckham Rye and Honor Oak (Brockley Rise) far as I can tell. Oh, Brenchley Gardens and Linden Grove near the cemeteries too. Be careful for yourself, and everyone else too.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by JohnL January 12, 10:27AM

ed_pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Agreed. I've seen no change in drivers attitudes
> (including my own) to the 20mph limit and police
> numbers are too thin to bother. Interestingly the
> City of London Corporation are proposing a 15mph
> limit.
> [londonist.com]-
> limit-15mph

In a few years the roads will be filled with driverless cars and taxis - all these will never break the speed limit and perhaps function better in a slow environment.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by malumbu January 12, 02:04PM

Local road policy is poo. Totally unjoined up. No public buy-in. You may as well just unrestrict the speed on Brenchley Gardens.

I will get round to bothering Southwark about it sometime.

Bus usage reducing, cycle superhighways don't help (as much as I am support of compulsory cycling for everyone) and slow down buses, making people paradoxically switch back to cars.

Car occupancy decreasing too ie even more single occupants.

ULEZ (Boris introduced this not Sadiq) is heavy handed, and rather desperate. I don't see BoJo doing much as PM putting most of his eggs into electric cars.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by DulwichFox January 12, 02:53PM

ULEZ Plans were laid out under Boris Johnson and introduced by Sadiq Khan in April 2019.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by SpringTime January 12, 03:10PM

Perhaps average speed checks in blanket form is better - rather than people like me breaking the limit whenever possible and just slowing down where I know the cameras are.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by malumbu January 12, 07:25PM

ULEZ policy was BJ's, as he announced at Mansion House in 2014, I was there. SQ just bought it forward. Surprised at the time that a Tory Mayor announced an interventionist policy [www.london.gov.uk] BJ also considered extension to the Circular roads, and a possible zero emission zone in central London. DF I've posted this in the past on the general matters site.

Average speed cameras are the way forward. Speed traps and bumps just encourage accelerate/break. For fun go down Court Lane and see how poo virtually every driver is (you can average around 20mph by simply using your accerator to gently speed up just before the bump and back off a little way before, not needing to brake once until you hit the junction). I'm also trained in ecodriving. I'm such a friggin tree hugger me. Speeeding fines and trying to get to 130mph on a motorbike are a thing of the past.

messageRe: 20 mph limit?
Posted by SpringTime January 12, 09:01PM

Agreed. Pretty much the only way I'll save lives, fuel and cash. Got to be a win-win-win.

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