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The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
messageFine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Eggybread July 09, 10:45PM

Hi, grateful to hear from anyone that’s received a fine when legitimately turning left into the bus lane to go to Sainsbury’s! The photo we’ve been sent clearly shows our car (not me driving) in the bus lane within at the staggered line and just yards away from the turning. Interested to hear if you’ve successfully challenged a fine at the same location or in a similar situation.

Thanks

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by jonnywalker July 09, 11:40PM

I'd contest it, clearly has a dashed line near the traffic light allowing cars to go left

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Passiflora July 09, 11:51PM

If the photo shows your car is in the bus lane I wouldn't bother contesting it.

London buses also have cameras on the back end to record any strays into the bus lane.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Eggybread July 10, 01:23AM

Thanks both. We will contest, as you have to be in thelan at that part to be able to turn. I’m guessing this is a new thing though as we’ve done this hundreds of times before, at the same appropriate point, with no issue.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by singalto July 10, 07:42AM

I had always understood that you can go into the bus lane once you get to the staggered white lines. Good luck and let us know ow you get on..

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by KidKruger July 10, 07:56AM

Eggy - What is the reason advised to you for the fine?

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Siduhe July 10, 10:12AM

There are a couple of recent "appeal refused" ETA cases in respect of DKH which seem to confirm that a motorist can cross into the bus lane to turn left where the solid white line becomes a broken white line (which is what I always understood).

[londontribunals.org.uk]

Quote:
Adjudicator
Mr Malek’s case is that went to Dog Kennel Hill to drop off a customer and went into the bus lane to drop them off. Mr Malek says he then had a new job picking up the new customer on the same road and was just a few meters further so he went to pick them up from there.
I accept this evidence but the images show the vehicle travelling down the bus lane and then turning left.

This is not a valid exemption for being in a bus lane and the motorist must wait until the end of bus lane or a direction arrow or break in the continuous line. Where there is no break, typically adjoining an entrance to private premises, a vehicle can only cross the bus lane and not travel in it.

An activated indicator light may well demonstrate an intention to turn but does provide an exemption from the prohibition.

I accept that this may not have been a deliberate attempt by Mr Malek to contravene the bus lane regulations but that is not in itself a valid ground of appeal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was july 10, 10:13am by Siduhe.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by ianr July 10, 10:46AM

Previously on EDF ... [www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk]

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Zak July 10, 11:04PM

The Transport for London website is quite clear that it's not an offence to cross into a bus lane where there is a dotted line ( as opposed to a solid line) in order to follow a left turn arrow and turn left
[tfl.gov.uk]

Fight it!

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Asset July 15, 11:10AM

I suspect, as there are no cameras on that stretch, the picture was taken by a bus and the car had entered the bus lane before the hatched section of the white line. I see cars going up that stretch of bus lane all the time.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by mimifantasia87 July 15, 02:57PM

you shouldn't get a fine. myself and my brother go on that bus lane way ahead of the left turn - and no fines received yet. touch wood! defo do a representation for it! if we don't go on the bus lane -it creates more traffic and cutting buses off to cut back into left. its silly to have a bus lane there! grrrr. good luck

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by JohnL July 15, 03:20PM

I'ts difficult - I had to stop a couple of weeks ago in the outside lane to wait for traffic to move ahead so I could cross into the bus lane at the correct point not before.

People behind me wonder why I'm not moving ahead to the lights (or maybe they don't if they know the area).

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Frankito July 15, 04:37PM

I see people driving in the bus lane all the time way before the dotted lines before turning left so, whilst I’m not saying this is the case in your situation, it doesn’t surprise me if there are loads of such fines issued on a daily basis..!

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by rahrahrah July 16, 06:35AM

If you crossed the dotted line, you shouldn’t have been fined and should definitely appeal. For those that say it’s OK to drive up the bus lane- you’re wrong and it makes it difficult/ dangerous for those turning at the proper place (as someone wizzes up, undertaking on the left).

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by KidKruger July 16, 07:58AM

Yeah rahrah's correct.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Penguin68 July 16, 08:54AM

It's worth noting two things - the dotted lines probably start too late (ideally at least another bus-length or two of cross-over would be safer) and that section of bus lane (to Denmark Hill) would be very suited for morning rush-hour only (7am - 10am) restrictions - at most other times (except when there are road works) traffic flow is actually pretty good, and buses would not get held up by non bus traffic.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Sue July 16, 12:16PM

Penguin68 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's worth noting two things - the dotted lines
> probably start too late (ideally at least another
> bus-length or two of cross-over would be safer)
> and that section of bus lane (to Denmark Hill)
> would be very suited for morning rush-hour only
> (7am - 10am) restrictions - at most other times
> (except when there are road works) traffic flow is
> actually pretty good, and buses would not get held
> up by non bus traffic.


Very good points.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by AllisonAdler July 16, 02:11PM

Yes, those are very good points. They actually shortened the dotted area when they last repainted for reasons that are rather difficult to ascertain. Could someone from Southwark maybe address this issue? Creating a dangerous situation for a high-use car park seems less that foresightful.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Penguin68 July 16, 02:15PM

They actually shortened the dotted area when they last repainted for reasons that are rather difficult to ascertain.

Revenue generation? - these fines don't just hand themselves out... I'm on record elsewhere as suggesting our council(ors) are not to be trusted.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’sattachment
Posted by ianr July 16, 05:33PM

From the following it seems to me that there's a 30 m broken line prescribed, as in the RH part of figure 9-1. (The diagrams cited are in TSRGD itself. Diagram 1010, for example, is simply a line of 1000 x 200 mm dashes, printed at [www.legislation.gov.uk].)

1.1.1. The Traffic Signs Manual (the Manual) offers advice to traffic authorities and their contractors, designers and managing agents in the United Kingdom, on the use of traffic signs and road markings on the highway network. Mandatory requirements are set out in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (as amended) (TSRGD).
............
9.3.13. Where a nearside bus lane passes a junction with a major left‑turning flow into the side road, the line to diagram 1049A should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). The broken line should commence 30 m in advance of the junction, and have the same width as the line to diagram 1049A. It should be accompanied by the arrow to diagram 1050 indicating a left turn (see Figure 9-6). At other junctions, the diagram 1049A marking should be terminated approximately 10 m before the junction (or at the junction if the minor road is one‑way towards the major road). In each case the bus lane recommences beyond the junction in combination with a marking to diagram 1010 (see Figure 9-1). It is important to ensure that the marking to diagram 1049A is terminated correctly, so that drivers turning left can move across to do so safely without needing to cross the continuous line.
--Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3 (2019) [www.gov.uk]

Attachments: figure_9-1.jpg (47.1KB)  
messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by JohnL July 16, 05:37PM

I'd say it's 10m as two cars fills it.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by Froglander July 16, 05:38PM

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'ts difficult - I had to stop a couple of weeks
> ago in the outside lane to wait for traffic to
> move ahead so I could cross into the bus lane at
> the correct point not before.
>
> People behind me wonder why I'm not moving ahead
> to the lights (or maybe they don't if they know
> the area).
Yes, I do this too.

messageRe: Fine when not in bus lane/turn to Sainsbury’s
Posted by ianr July 16, 05:56PM

> I'd say it's 10m as two cars fills it.

Which would be consistent with its being treated as not a major left-turning flow. I don't know what people think would be an appropriate length, or whether anything other then the 30 or 10 m options could be considered.


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