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The East Dulwich Forum
The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by intexasatthe moment 22 September, 2019 08:17

If you live outside the zone and are worried that the CPZ will result in increased parking in your street buying a permit is unlikely to help as it won't guarantee a space . And the hope of parking in the zone will increasingly fade if the permits were sold to a wider public .

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by rollflick 22 September, 2019 08:25

Given London councils are still in breach of 2010 air quality limits, they have to take action so this suggested legal case sounds doomed. Needless to say the climate emergency also has some relevance.

After road/congestion charging, parking controls and charges are the most effective means to cut motor traffic, and with it air pollution and CO2 emissions. Over 3/4 of those surveyed in Southwark's biggest consultation exercises supported cutting traffic and concern about climate change is at record levels. So the borough has compelling grounds to take action. The mayor's policy requires Southwark to ensure "Londonís streets will be used more efficiently and have less traffic on them", so Southwark has adopted policies to "Introduce a borough wide CPZ & Review parking charges to charge most polluting vehicles more." The time limit for challenging that is over and any CPZ decision taken on the basis of that policy will be robust.

The suggestion that parking policies are about favouring driving residents over driving commuters is not true and not reflected in any borough policy.

That's not of course to say everyone will or should agree with parking controls, at least those who don't could suggest alternatives to cut emissions to respect the desires of the majority for a healthier, greener borough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:09:22:21:50:19 by rollflick.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by first mate 22 September, 2019 09:59

Rollflick, well put. I'd have thought monitoring of air quality will be important and we'd need to see improvement.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by MarkT 22 September, 2019 10:32

Rofflick writes:
"After road/congestion charging, parking controls and charges are the most effective means to cut motor traffic, and with it air pollution and CO2 emissions."

The Council's Transport Plan Annual Monitoring Report 17-18 seems to indicate otherwise. It states:
"While the aim of increasing parking controls is to dissuade private car ownership, other forms of transport that are replacing this must be acknowledged. This includes on-demand services, such as Uber, and car rent options such as car clubs. Zipcar is one such club and the data presented shows a rapid increase in use over the last five years. This shows that there are alternatives in Southwark to traditional forms of transport and that they are growing Ė and will continue to grow Ė at a fast rate."

It reports 135% increase in individual zip car registrations in 5 years, 47% of that in the last year. while "car ownership fluctuating between 56.500 and 59,000 over the last 7 years"

"The greatest decrease (in car ownership) has been observed in the light goods category".

The last point, of course, means locally resident tradespeople are being driven out of business. Local work still needs to be done, but presumably by tradespeople driving in from out of town.

MarkT

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by Sunglasses 22 September, 2019 19:15

Assuming the proposals for the CPZ are agreed, when is this CPZ actually going to come into effect? Thanks

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by Charles Martel 23 September, 2019 04:08

rollflick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [...]
>
> After road/congestion charging, parking controls
> and charges are the most effective means to cut
> motor traffic, and with it air pollution and CO2
> emissions. Over 3/4 of those surveyed in
> Southwark's biggest consultation exercises
> supported cutting traffic and concern about
> climate change is at record levels. So the borough
> has compelling grounds to take action. The mayor's
> policy requires Southwark to ensure "Londonís
> streets will be used more efficiently and have
> less traffic on them", so Southwark has adopted
> policies to "Introduce a borough wide CPZ & Review
> parking charges to charge most polluting vehicles
> more." The time limit for challenging that is
> over and any CPZ decision taken on the basis of
> that policy will be robust.

None of this has any relevance to a small CPZ covering a few streets around East Dulwich station. If the residents of that area are happy then good for them. However the CPZ will do precisely nothing to cut the volume of through traffic on any of the routes through this area. It really is absurd to suggest that it will when we have virtually stationary queues of traffic which we can all see every morning and evening on these routes. Southwark council cannot dictate the number of cars allowed to drive along the South Circular, the Old Kent Road or anywhere else in the borough. So instead of solving the problem, they try and use the problem to charge residents who own cars a poll tax. How can any rational person think that just giving Southwark council an extra £125 will solve anything, much less climate change? In the 80s Southwark was declared a nuclear free zone. That did not end the Cold War. Now Southwark has declared a climate emergency. Perhaps this will have more impact, but I doubt it.

>
> The suggestion that parking policies are about
> favouring driving residents over driving commuters
> is not true and not reflected in any borough
> policy.

This statement is totally ridiculous. The whole argument made in the council's CPZ consultation proposal was that residents were asking for a CPZ because they wanted to be able to park their cars. This was restated by local councillors at a meeting I attended in April. Now if you are saying that what the council says is a lie and that they have a hidden agenda, then many would agree with you.

>
> That's not of course to say everyone will or
> should agree with parking controls, at least those
> who don't could suggest alternatives to cut
> emissions to respect the desires of the majority
> for a healthier, greener borough.

No. The people who are in favour of new policies should be the ones explaining how their proposals will actually achieve their desired outcomes. How exactly does a CPZ cut through traffic? How exactly does charging residents a fee for parking their cars outside their houses cut air pollution? Why would a charge of £125 change the behaviour of someone who can afford to keep a car on the road in any case?

To cut traffic effectively we would need to introduce a national road pricing scheme, but the people running this country would regard that as too difficult.

To cut CO2 emissions we need to build all the nuclear power stations we should have built in the 70s and 80s, but didn't because of superstitious idiots. All the people who were against nuclear power then should take their share of responsibility for the carbon emissions they opted for instead. With a nuclear reactor you can even make jet fuel out of sea water [www.smithsonianmag.com]

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by Penguin68 23 September, 2019 08:30

In the 80s Southwark was declared a nuclear free zone. As indeed was Greenwich - both declarations seemed entirely 'safe' (nice bit of virtue signalling, nothing needing to be done) - but of course Greenwich had, (a State Secret at the time) a working nuclear generator - in The Royal Naval College - as it was then - to train submariner engineers - it was sited in the Queen Mary Building. Not that powerful, of course, but still Greenwich was anything but a nuclear free zone. And Southwark did of course benefit from electricity generated by nuclear power throughout its 'nuclear free' status.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by rahrahrah 23 September, 2019 15:36

It's all good and well making driving more difficult, but this needs to be met with equal efforts to make alternatives easier / more attractive. Public transport in this part of town is terrible (at least compared to the rest of Inner London). Cycling infrastructure is improving massively, especially in the centre of town, but is still pretty weak locally. If Southwark are serious about creating 'healthy streets', they would have a massive programme of pedestrianisation, build segregated cycle lanes and lobby hard for improvements to the suburban train services in SE London and to extend high frequency urban transport / the tube.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by Abe_froeman 23 September, 2019 16:27

This doesn't even make driving more difficult! The whole point of it is to make driving easier. The people that wanted this CPZ the most were those who get in their car every morning, pop out for a little drive and then find a commuter in 'their' parking spot when they get home.

These people want to be able to drive to wherever they are going (presumably parking somewhere?) and still have their parking space once they've driven home. And the CPZ enables and makes those journeys a lot esaier...

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by eastdulwichlocal99 23 September, 2019 21:59

Letís just wait and see how bad the displacement effect is and more importantly, increasing pollution from congested cars, on neighbouring streets.

Sadly the council have moved several times from the initial consultation results e.g. changing the time to all day instead of 2 hours in the morning AFTER the consultation report was produced. How on earth is this democratic and fair?

I predict that this is just the start of the CPZ once those streets that were undecided notice the detrimental effects on their roads. You cannot have a consulatation on one set of criteria and then change the results after. Really disappointed with our councillors, although not entirely surprised.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by rahrahrah 24 September, 2019 09:48

Abe_froeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This doesn't even make driving more difficult! The
> whole point of it is to make driving easier. The
> people that wanted this CPZ the most were those
> who get in their car every morning, pop out for a
> little drive and then find a commuter in 'their'
> parking spot when they get home.
>
> These people want to be able to drive to wherever
> they are going (presumably parking somewhere?) and
> still have their parking space once they've driven
> home. And the CPZ enables and makes those journeys
> a lot esaier...

This is very true. It does likely encourage short local car journeys.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by Abe_froeman 24 September, 2019 15:33

At a guess, given the timing, I would think they will be driving to a school.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by wongo 24 September, 2019 18:52

I am on the Lewisham side of Sydenham Hill at Crystal Palace Parade end. In March 2018 Southwark Council secretly in the middle of the night under the pretence of re-tarmacing the road extended the bus lane and double yellow lines resulting in the lost of 20 street car parking spaces on both the Lewisham and Southwark sides. This was done without a public consultation and instead using TFL's initiative as an excuse. We contacted TFL and they came back to say Sydenham Hill is not under their control. The parking restrictions were supposed to be 24/7 despite Sydenham Hill being a relatively quiet road.Obviously, residents and properties affected raised their objections.

Southwark, knowing this was illegal, undertook a residents consultation in June 2018 and the objections to the bus lane and double yellow lines were overwhelming. Not accepting the June 2018 results, Southwark conducted another residents consultation in June this year and the result was the same. We knew this by talking to residents affected. Southwark did not want to furnish the results of both consultations to us. So to date the bus lane and double yellow extension is left as it was and residents continue to park on it knowing the restrictions cannot be implemented.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by pagan 24 September, 2019 22:07

here the orders
[www.southwark.gov.uk]

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by pagan 24 September, 2019 22:19

pretty tricky....if a resident that lives in the CPZ doesn't want to spend money on the permit or against it, or with no money for that. it Will for sure park few roads away in some parking free zone street. Basically the area where is free zone will be assaulted by many extra vehicles looking for the free parking. As consequence the residents will complain...Hence soon the Council has white paper to declare all East Dulwich CPZ, as such imposing charges to everybody. Simple as that ...cleverly masterminded...

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by Abe_froeman 25 September, 2019 10:19

It's not that clever pagan, it's been pretty obvious for a number of years as they slowly creep bit by bit through the borough with their stealth tax scheme.

Presumably the change to all day is to catch out people who are waiting to pick someone up from the train station. Otherwise there would be no PCN revenues at all. We will see if the traffic wardens hang around waiting to ticket people at rush hour.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by wongo 25 September, 2019 11:28

The Sydenham Hill Bus Lane Improvement Notice is dated 28 March 2019 - one year after Southwark secretly extended the bus lane and double yellow lines without prior consultation. As Southwark did not follow proper protocol, following the June 2018 and March 2019 (I mentioned June 2019 in error) residents consultations overwhelming objections the extended bus lane restriction has to date not been enforced.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by rahrahrah 25 September, 2019 11:44

What annoys me about the whole thing is the pretence that it's about encouraging 'healthy streets' and 'active travel' It is not. It's about appeasing residents who want to keep a car outside their house.
How about closing some streets to traffic, giving space over to bikes and put real effort into lobbying for public transport improvements in the borough.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by Countrlass22 27 September, 2019 20:15

Well I've responded to new cpz proposal for Ed.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by AylwardS 28 September, 2019 14:14

Having read the reasons for the decision this makes sense. The proposal was for one two hour zone but there was a suggestion that the zone was split in two and the East Dulwich one operated all day due issues that will arise from parking related to the school / health centre. The full day zone was also suggested, according to the reasons for decision, as the option to go with the shorter time was possible without going back to committee. I can see the health centre will cause parking need all day so a two hour zone isnít going to have the same impact it did in zone Q where commuter parking was the main issue, but will work for the West Peckham Zone which has the same issues. Its not a fix all but it will address the problem raised.

You can see the committee papers here
[moderngov.southwark.gov.uk]

If you want to respond then you can do that online or by email. The reference is ĎTMO1920-025 E Dulwich parking zoneí. Responses are to be submitted by 17 October 2019.

The TMO is at [www.southwark.gov.uk]

The response form can be found at [forms.southwark.gov.uk] or emails can be sent to traffic.orders@southwark.gov.uk

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by Peckhamgatecrasher 03 October, 2019 03:32

I believe there is a drop-in session about the CPZ at Amott Road Baptist Church this evening (3 Oct).

The info was on a lamppost notice but I'm not sure about the details. Can anyone confirm?

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by TheArtfulDogger 22 December, 2019 21:18

Looks like Southwark will be pulling off the miracle of a white (wash) Christmas

[moderngov.southwark.gov.uk]

Decision not before 23rd December but you can bet it happens over Christmas and the resident and business objections have been disregarded

As said before by others, the council see it as a way of supplementing their coffers as whilst the revenue raised from it is ring fenced, it doesn't stop them from reducing how much other funding is placed in the road improvement pot by the same amount as the cpz generates and moving that funding elsewhere

Some call it creative accounting...

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by first mate 22 December, 2019 23:20

It is interesting that the council is now open to reducing double yellows on some streets within the proposed CPZ to create more permit spaces. Yet, not so long ago, extending double yellows, thereby artificially creating parking pressure, was pushed through by the council as a vital safety measure.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by ED_moots 23 December, 2019 21:08

What a stitch up! Much reduced parking on MG as a result. Double yellows over all the dropped curbs and beyond, you couldn't park a mini on most of these 'driveways' so anyone that used to park over their frontage will now compete for residents bays. At the northern end over 30 properties are eligible for permits for about 5 spaces up to the middle of MG. And 125 quid charge for the privilege.

I find it disgraceful that southwark have fudged this through with the support of a small vocal minority.

Anyone else feel like not buying a permit or paying the fines? I don't see that any objections were given due consideration. Expect the zone to creep within a year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:23:21:12:14 by ED_moots.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by bob 23 December, 2019 23:24

Well spotted FM

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by Sporthuntor 29 December, 2019 23:28

34 objections, 33 rejected. This borough is like North Korea. I hope we all remember this when the next local elections come around. No support from our local councillors (again)

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by hammerman 29 December, 2019 23:58

Local councillors seem to have lost touch about local issues and would rather it all comes down to something to do with Brexit.

I have had no support from local councillors and don't know which way to turn.

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by Penguin68 30 December, 2019 09:20

34 objections, 33 rejected. This borough is like North Korea. I hope we all remember this when the next local elections come around. No support from our local councillors (again)

Can I perhaps refer you back to a thread I started in March this (just!) year.

[www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk]

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by DadOf4 January 06, 11:50AM

parking (excuse the pun) the merits and problems of a CPZ for the moment, does anybody know what happens next and when ?
i.e. when will be see new lines being painted and permits issued/enforced ?
I read somewhere about a formal consultation period - is that whats currently happening ?

messageRe: CPZ announced
Posted by rahrahrah January 10, 01:47PM

I would support wide spread traffic exclusion in an attempt to increase active travel and to improve the environment. I strongly disapprove of privatising public space for car storage in this way. It's go nothing to do with 'health streets' and I wish the council would be straight forward about it.
The approach seems to constantly knee jerk to a shouty minority, rather than take a considered strategic approach to managing traffic in the area.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was january 10, 02:09pm by rahrahrah.

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