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messageSouthwark Spine
Posted by rahrahrah September 20, 02:30PM

The Southwark Spine gets mentioned in a few threads, but doesn't seem to have it's own. So I'm creating one. I have looked at the documents on Southwark Council website, but I can't quite work out what's proposed. The real pain points for me on this route are the crossing from Kelly Avenue to Lyndhurst Way, Lyndhurst Way generally (in that it's in terrible conditions and cars tend to cut in front of bikes at the traffic islands) and Crystal Palace Road. The latter is probably the road where I have encountered the most issues anywhere on my commute, with cars passing for too close or getting frustrated because there isn't enough room to pass when they want to.
I can see that the Kelly Ave / Lyndhurst Way crossing is earmarked for 'improvement' but can't work out what this actually entails in practice.
Crystal Palace Road seems to be subject to 'traffic calming', but again, I can't find the detail.
The only new segregated bit of route I can see in Flint Street. Is this actually new, or just the existing bit past the dangerous 'bike crossing next to a zebra crossing but with no obvious indication of who has right of way' section?
Is Thurlow Road going to get a segregated cycle lane (and if not, why? It's plenty wide enough).
Any help interpreting any of this would be appreciated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 20, 02:32pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by rahrahrah September 20, 02:43PM

Also, does anyone have any sense of the timescale for this? The website says it'll be subject to consultation. Has this happened already?

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by goldilocks September 20, 02:48PM

Might be worth getting in contact with Southwark Cyclists - they have been following this closely

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by mancity68 September 20, 06:42PM

There doing something down on the bit of Bellenden Road near Lidl, clearly widening pavements significantly. Not sure if a precursor to making one way? I recall they were going to do something weird with the one way system around there.

messageRe: Southwark Spineattachment
Posted by rollflick September 21, 08:08AM

By way of context, the spine was announced as Southwark's flagship cycle route in Oct 2014 for completion by April 2019. Other than widening traffic islands and now tweaking kerbs on Crystal Palace Road nothing's happened yet. [www.southwark.gov.uk]
According to police data, the most dangerous junctions on it are where it crosses Peckham Road (Kelly/ Lyndhurst), East Dulwich Road and by Borough Road.

There's lots of different stages of the spine, so maybe easiest to update from north to south below.
- Borough Road to Burgess Park: has been quietly dropped even though critical for new housing developments, the most deprived areas and to relieve congested crossings of New Kent Road
- St George's Way to Kelly Avenue: recently approved this is the best bit but does propose some right angle bends even worse than those recently introduced on Rodney Road/Heygate, not accessible for all types of cycle
- Peckham Road: this is TfL's responsibility and being considered as part of the long delayed Peckham Town Centre scheme to tackle pedestrian fatalities. Apparently plans were just gesture engineering so have been sent back for a rethink and strengthening, unclear if consultation will still happen in 2019
- Lyndhust to Chadwick: plans were strongly rejected in public consultation, in particular by people who cycle, but officers fiddled the figures, withheld Southwark Cyclists' consultation response from the decision maker and after 2 years of making a few tweaks is pressing on with statutory consultation. See attached showing how segregation (in green) won't tackle cycle collisions (as stars), worse still it creates car/cycle conflict by forcing people to cycle in the wrong place around the gyratory then cut across drivers. It also delays drivers and in particular the P13 by being as tight as east end of Chadwick Road but also inadequate even for current peak hour cycle flows
- Bellenden parade: being redesigned, don't hold your breath for action to tackle this rat run
- Maxted Road to Goodrich Road: more statutory consultation, again mixture of badly designed and simply waste of money interventions while not targeting problems actually faced cycling. Typical example are Southwark's unique speciality of "traffic carpets", expensive paving that is disruptive to install but then obliterated with markings painted all over (rather destroying the point), that become loose within months. Examples are at top (ED end) of Camberwell Grove and much of quietway 1, council has been wasting money like this for years.
- southern end: pointing towards the golf club and woods, unclear where route is actually leading to or how will get there other than some very circuitous manoeuvres over Lordship Lane

Southwark Cyclists is preparing a legal objection to the new traffic orders, calling for a return to previous plans to remove the gyratory that won majority support. It's not just a case of these proposals being a waste of money but because the plans deliberately create conditions that will in places be more dangerous and unpleasant for cycling.

More generally the council still pretends simply putting in a few cycle logos and humps will make rat runs accessible for a wide range of people to ride on, e.g. Adys Road (pictured in rush hour) will just get a few cycle logos.
As one councillor recently observed: "Proof that Quietways aren't working. Canvassing on Q7 in Dulwich Village and all the families I've seen this morning have been cycling in the pavement." When will the council listen or learn?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was september 21, 08:12am by rollflick.

Attachments: 20190913_183251.jpg (134.2KB)   spine tracks.jpg (137.6KB)  
messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by intexasatthe moment September 22, 08:28AM

rollflick thank you for that detailed and helpful post . And for being so measured !

I have nothing useful to add ,I objected years ago to the Adys Rd proposal .And also to the shared cycle way past Boots in Rye Lane .

I'm not one for criticising Southwark but am increasingly finding reasons to do so - their approach to cycle ways is madness and insulting .

I hope the legal challenge is succesful .

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by rupert james September 22, 10:01AM

Some while ago I seem to recall that Southwark, at great expense, employed overseas consultants to advise on the spine

route, one way system and junctions around `Lyndhurst Road, Holly Grove and Bellenden Road and some surrounding roads.

I cannot recall ever seeing a conclusion or plan appear from that.

Is it Southwark's plan to issue more part TMO'S and slowly do what ever they want without any consulting anyone.

Just lately it seems Southwark is issuing more and more plans one loses track.

One should not lose sight of the fact that when all the road works and closures that took place just recently the one way system worked 100% with no problems.

Although I agree that the junctions need to be altered to allow easy crossing.

People may not like to hear but cycles only pass through for a very brief period in the morning and evening rush hours after that the roads are very quiet. Why the need to change?

Has anyone got information on the above?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 22, 10:03am by rupert james.

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by intexasatthe moment September 22, 10:16AM

"People may not like to hear but cycles only pass through for a very brief period in the morning and evening rush hours after that the roads are very quiet."

I think you mean the majority of cyclists ( in my mind known as "the packs " ) .There are plenty of other non commuting cyclists ,some of whom may be less comfident,less athletic and carrying shopping and/or children .

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by Gubodge September 22, 12:15PM

I am a confident cyclist who commutes daily along this route, but back when I started riding my bike in London I would have gone out of my way not to use Lyndhurst/Bellenden/Crystal Palace. And I would t be happy with my children cycling on them now.

If the route feels safe, occasional cyclist will use it as a viable alternative to getting in their cars.

The Lyndhurst/Peckham Road junction definitely needs sorting, and not just for bikes crossing over from Kelly Avenue. Itís crazy that thereís no pedestrian phase for crossing Lyndhurst, particularly as thereís a primary school on that corner. (Not to mention the poor, bewildered tourists from the Best Western)

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by intexasatthe moment September 22, 02:08PM

Gubudge "I would have gone out of my way not to use Lyndhurst/Bellenden/Crystal Palace." - what route did you use as an alternative ?

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by sally buying September 22, 02:54PM

Does any one know what the road works are about at the bottom of Avondale Rise?

Something to do with the spine?

What these road works will do is make the traffic flows impossible, or will all the P13 routes and car routes be moved,

do Southwark actually know what they are doing?

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by rollflick September 22, 10:08PM

Gubodge - yes if cycling is to offer health benefits it will need to engage those who aren't already active 20-40 somethings. After Camberwell Grove was reopened there's not a single route suitable for all ages & abilities between Brixton & New Cross. Rye Lane & Denmark Hill both manic. This is reliably the worst bit for me for cycling into central London.

sally buying - those roadworks are my fault, I got funding as the junction had no safe pedestrian route and was difficult for drivers pulling out due to the angle. The pain will be worth it, should actually make everything safer and smoother for all, especially people on foot, once finished not to mention look nicer!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was september 23, 07:45am by rollflick.

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by sally buying September 22, 10:19PM

Why were all local residents not consulted on this and why did our Lane Cllrs not even bring the matter to every ones attention?

Where did the funding come from?

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by Gubodge September 22, 10:34PM

Intexas, I used to do a very convoluted route using Marsden, Copplestone and down Camberwell Grove and then various back streets on either side of Walworth Road.

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by micromacromonkey September 23, 10:01AM

rupert james Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> People may not like to hear but cycles *(and cars and trucks and pedestrians)* only pass
> through for a very brief period in the morning and
> evening rush hours after that the roads are very
> quiet. Why the need to change?
>
> Has anyone got information on the above?

Fixed that for you.

It's called 'rush hour' for a reason. That is when the majority of all types of vehicle are using the roads. Schemes must be designed to cope with this, not with the daily average.

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by spider69 September 23, 10:05AM

rollflick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> sally buying - those roadworks are my fault, I got
> funding as the junction had no safe pedestrian
> route and was difficult for drivers pulling out
> due to the angle. The pain will be worth it,
> should actually make everything safer and smoother
> for all, especially people on foot, once finished
> not to mention look nicer!

If my memory works this corner already had double yellow lines from Avondale Rise round to Bellenden Road. There was no problem with sight lines or in my opinion the angle if Southwark had enforced these lines. They did not.

So we are now paying out a lot of money. From looking at this design it appears this has made the corner more difficult with the loss of a traffic Island and the pavement being built out to make the corner narrower.

I am all for change when required.

Just how much did this cost? or are we to be left in the dark? I am sure there are a lot of other projects that could have benefited.

As mentioned before perhaps the local Cllrs could explain how this came about. Another TMO which can just happen with no consultation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 23, 10:10am by spider69.

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by rahrahrah September 23, 01:44PM

@Rollflick - thanks for that great response - really informative.

It is a shame that Southwark / TFL can't at the very least sort out the Kelly Avenue x Lyndhurst Way junction. It's pretty dangerous.

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by davidq100 September 26, 03:34PM

Agree with the comments about the need to improve the Kelly Avenue <> Lynhurst Way jct.
However before dealing with that, I wonder whether the Council could at least re-surface the Peckham Road end of Lynhurst way. Coming back from town, the road past the school is bone-shakingly terrible!
A proper cycle path into Burgess Park from the end of Chandler Way would also be very welcome too.

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by sally buying November 26, 04:36PM

spider69 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rollflick Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > sally buying - those roadworks are my fault, I
> got
> > funding as the junction had no safe pedestrian
> > route and was difficult for drivers pulling out
> > due to the angle. The pain will be worth it,
> > should actually make everything safer and
> smoother
> > for all, especially people on foot, once
> finished
> > not to mention look nicer!
>
> If my memory works this corner already had double
> yellow lines from Avondale Rise round to Bellenden
> Road. There was no problem with sight lines or in
> my opinion the angle if Southwark had enforced
> these lines. They did not.
>
> So we are now paying out a lot of money. From
> looking at this design it appears this has made
> the corner more difficult with the loss of a
> traffic Island and the pavement being built out to
> make the corner narrower.
>
> I am all for change when required.
>
> Just how much did this cost? or are we to be left
> in the dark? I am sure there are a lot of other
> projects that could have benefited.
>
> As mentioned before perhaps the local Cllrs could
> explain how this came about. Another TMO which can
> just happen with no consultation.

Southwark has just supplied the cost of these works which were agreed back in January 2018 by local Cllrs. The cost came to £25,000.00

I cannot see there has been an upgraded improvement over what was there before. Could the money have been spent better elsewhere?

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by spider69 November 26, 07:48PM

Sally buying, thanks for bring this cost up as it would have just been lost without anyone being aware.

Just how many of these schemes are being quietly passed without anyone having a chance to comment.

Below is an example


rollflick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> sally buying - those roadworks are my fault, I got
> funding as the junction had no safe pedestrian
> route and was difficult for drivers pulling out
> due to the angle. The pain will be worth it,
> should actually make everything safer and smoother
> for all, especially people on foot, once finished
> not to mention look nicer!

How much money is being spent on schemes like this that do not need to be done because Cllrs listen to a small pushy number of residents. No one else has any idea. So wrong

messageRe: Southwark Spine
Posted by rahrahrah November 27, 10:13AM

I cycle from ED to Kings X every day and the worst bit of the journey is returning back up Crystal Palace Road. Lot's of close passes, or cars overtaking and then slamming on the breaks for speed bumps or oncoming traffic, or ducking back in and cutting you up at the 'islands', or people opening their doors without looking... And yet Southwark have decided that this is the best route to direct people down without making any improvements. It's ridiculous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was november 27, 10:56am by rahrahrah.


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