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messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets June 30, 04:16PM

If you take a quick look at Google Maps you can see that the council appears to have created a ring of red stationery traffic around Dulwich - A205, Lordship Lane, ED Grove, Half Moon Lane and Croxted Road. It's early days of course but traffic does seem to be a lot heavier everywhere on the basis of these closures. Even Melbourne Grove is showing red - is it as chaotic as it seems?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by tiddles June 30, 04:18PM

And bizarrely the air quality can only get worse in the village in particular? I sat at 3 light changes next to the primary school as cars could not go straight ahead so had to wait to turn left - which was gridlocked due to the increased level of traffic going that way.

utterly bonkers. plus the people living in woodwarde road and the closed off streets now have to undertake a massive loop simply to get through the village.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by EDguy89 June 30, 04:33PM

Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even Melbourne
> Grove is showing red - is it as chaotic as it
> seems?


No it's not.

I live on Melbourne Grove and the impact of this barrier is already being noticed. Noticed in that there's significantly less cars going up and down the street. I took a look at google to see how it's being reported, but the all red/orange suggests it's bumper to bumper, when in actuallity the road is empty.

It's more likely that since it's inaccessible google just marks it red.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rupert james June 30, 04:37PM

How much has your house gone up now?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets June 30, 05:23PM

I see the activists are hailing this all as a victory whilst pressuring the council for more! Ha ha, they'll never be happy! I particularly love the way CleanAirDulwich is trying to spin a complaint from This is Dulwich Village that the pollution levels have gone through the roof since the blockade was put in tries to spin it for more closures!


[twitter.com]

[twitter.com]

And there's more from MumsforLungs, Dulwich Safe Routes and so the list goes on and on - who are these people and why do they wield such power with the council?!

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by sally buying June 30, 05:31PM

I think Rupert james summed it up on the 17 page.

People with little else to worry about.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rjsmall June 30, 05:33PM

I ran along East Dulwich Grove and through the Village this afternoon about 5pm and it looked chaotic - the traffic was very heavy. If this is what it is like when a number of the schools are closed I can only imagine it would be worse when the schools go back in the autumn. As there are no dedicated bus lanes there isn't even an advantage to getting on a bus - it would be quicker to walk.

Idling car engines aren't exactly going to contribute to improving the air quality.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by EDguy89 June 30, 05:39PM

rupert james Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How much has your house gone up now?


I wouldn't know. I rent.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by thebestnameshavegone June 30, 05:44PM

They're being asked to implement these measures *specifically* via the ETRO process, by both the Mayor, and the DfT, as a way to enable active travel as a response to coronavirus. This is an emergency, and the appropriate tools are being used.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by slarti b June 30, 05:49PM

Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And there's more from MumsforLungs, Dulwich Safe Routes and so the list goes on and on - who are
> these people and why do they wield such power with the council?!

rarahrah, a support of the schemes but also a realist summed up the process very well in another post

The assessment went like this. A small but vocal group living on Melbourne Grove petitioned councillors to close their road. A small but vocal group living near the junction of duulwich village / Court lane lobbied the council to close their road. The council responded to the loudest voices, with little reference to the wider area and seemingly no strategic plan.

As we have seen before, the Councillors are happy to listen to activists rather their constituents. However, it seems to be even worse now and it doesn't help that politically, the Dulwich area is now a one-party state with no opposition councillors.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by tiddles June 30, 05:52PM

cannot see what on earth these closures have to do with Covid? its a blanket excuse for any old cock up basically. I hope they measure the pollution levels very soon and compare with before.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by exdulwicher June 30, 05:55PM

Quote:
It's more likely that since it's inaccessible google just marks it red.

Takes a while for Google's algorithms to sort things out and occasionally they get it wrong.
A few years ago on the Dunwich Dynamo (night-time cycle ride from east London up to the Suffolk coast), Google Maps threw up a massive traffic jam on an A-road at about 3am.

Turned out it was hundreds of cyclists (all moving relatively slowly compared to normal traffic speed on that road) which caused Google to think it was a traffic jam.

Normally it's pretty good at working out modes of transport (which is why you can use anonymised / aggregated mobile phone data in traffic management studies) but with changes to road layouts, especially ones allowing pedestrians and cyclists to use large areas of main roads, it'll pick them up as lots of slow moving phones all together and assume that they're in cars and therefore a traffic jam. Again, give it a couple of weeks and the Maps thing sort of self-learns.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by slarti b June 30, 05:59PM

thebestnameshavegone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They're being asked to implement these measures "specifically* via the ETRO process, by both the
> Mayor, and the DfT, as a way to enable active travel as a response to coronavirus. This is an
> emergency, and the appropriate tools are being used.

It looks like they are using Coronavirus as an excuse to implement the OHS scheme through the back door without full consultation and scrutiny. Closing DV junction was inevitably going to lead to this chaos, even with schools not fully back and many people working from home.

So, if they continue teh OHS approach and start putting in road blocks at say Dulwich Village roundabout and Burbage then traffic in DV will be reduced but it will be displaced onto Lordship Lane, EDG, Croxted Road etc. I wonder what TfL will think of that? By the way remember that diverting traffic onto these "main roads" is one of the explicit aims of OHS though they refused to model the impact.

So, they will continue with a whack a mole approach with the self appointed activist groups pressing for more andf more ill considered, poorly thought through changes.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by slarti b June 30, 06:06PM

tiddles Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> utterly bonkers. plus the people living in woodwarde road and the closed off streets now have
> to undertake a massive loop simply to get through the village.

Presumably the next step will be to close off some of the other acess points, eg Townley\EDG, Townley\Lordhip Lane, Eynella Road, to deal with the inevitable consequences of the DV closure. And it will be difficult to have teh timed clsoures Southwark was proposing earlier so I suspect this could get much worse for those in area B.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Penguin68 June 30, 06:23PM

What all this does is cut out the flexibility of the area. On numerous occasions road works will close off one route - and traffic then re-routes to an alternative. But with the alternatives closed off - what chance does anyone (apart from pedestrians, perhaps) have? I remember the chaos when the South Circular was closed (completely) following a serious RTA - but there were escapes - now there won't be. It would be interesting to see just how keen our gauleiters would be if they were made personally, and fiscally, responsible for the costs to road users of this exercise. If emergency vehicles are held up, for instance, should they be charged with manslaughter or grievous bodily harm if people suffer as a consequence of their road closing and unthinking actions. Or for the respiratory health of those living in the roads they've condemned to standing traffic jams. But then, punishing the denizens of the 'leafy Dulwich' they evidently despise will be a win for them.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by kr988 June 30, 06:41PM

This is my unbiased opinion of the current changes. Im an ED resident who has to drop my son at school in West Dulwich on the way to work. He will be walking from September to a nearer school and my older son cycles to Dulwich Park regularly so I can see the pros and cons.
1)For cyclists getting to the village from ED its much better with a free run down Carlton.
2)Despite Schools not at full capacity and people working from home traffic is really backed up through the Dulwich Village - Id be very concerned about pollution levels for those walking through the village or in the playgrounds of both The Hamlet Schools.
3)Dulwich Common Road ( toward LL) is backed up with buses at a standstill.
4)EDG was not too bad - maybe because there is no backed up traffic from the junction of MG due to Melbourne being closed today. It must be safer for cars now but still hard to cross as cars are now turning at a speed into MG from EDG with no back up.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by slarti b June 30, 07:24PM

I imagine this is severely affecting the P4 and probably also the 37 and 42 bus routes.

Has anyone had experience of these services yesterday or today?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by EDAus June 30, 08:55PM

We knew the barrier had been installed as the traffic on Ashbourne Grove has increased already with cars / vans from Melbourne Grove to Lordship Lane in particular, a number speeding.

It is interesting to note double yellow lines have only been installed on one side of Melbourne Grove South which would not allow for a truck or anything bigger than a car to turn.

In the 10 minutes we visited we saw over three cars approach the barrier and turn down Tell Grove, a small narrow road which is not equipped for this high volume of traffic.

We have also been contacted by one of the emergency services as they have not been contacted / consulted on in relation to the closure, they requested additional information. I am concerned the road closure will lead to poorer outcomes for emergencies.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by KatyKoo June 30, 08:59PM

At last a voice of reason smiling smiley

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by KatyKoo June 30, 09:04PM

The council ran a year long consultation - didn't you know? it got one of the highest responses ever in a Southwark consultation - over 2000. There were lots of posters around advertising public meetings, and leaflets, street stalls etc. Would have thought you being so knowledgeable on the subject you might have attended some of the meetings?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by KatyKoo June 30, 09:06PM

Nope. They're all in their cars because too scared to use public transport. Do you read the news Slarti?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Milan05 June 30, 09:18PM

Back in DV, some cars have worked out they can squeeze up and mount the pavement in between the churchyard wall and the last planter and drive on the pavement.. unreal.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by first mate June 30, 09:33PM

That is most interesting. On another thread James McAsh gave the impression emergency services had been informed.

Am I alone in finding it odd the haste with which the council has forced through its OHS agenda, cynically using the Covid emergency to do so but, in the process, has seemingly failed to properly communicate with emergency services about street closures and the potential impact on those who might need those services?



EDAus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We knew the barrier had been installed as the
> traffic on Ashbourne Grove has increased already
> with cars / vans from Melbourne Grove to Lordship
> Lane in particular, a number speeding.
>
> It is interesting to note double yellow lines have
> only been installed on one side of Melbourne Grove
> South which would not allow for a truck or
> anything bigger than a car to turn.
>
> In the 10 minutes we visited we saw over three
> cars approach the barrier and turn down Tell
> Grove, a small narrow road which is not equipped
> for this high volume of traffic.
>
> We have also been contacted by one of the
> emergency services as they have not been contacted
> / consulted on in relation to the closure, they
> requested additional information. I am concerned
> the road closure will lead to poorer outcomes for
> emergencies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 30, 09:51pm by first mate.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by KatyKoo June 30, 09:45PM

thebestnameshavegone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They're being asked to implement these measures
> *specifically* via the ETRO process, by both the
> Mayor, and the DfT, as a way to enable active
> travel as a response to coronavirus. This is an
> emergency, and the appropriate tools are being
> used.

At last a voice of reason smiling smiley

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by bels123 June 30, 09:48PM

EDAus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We knew the barrier had been installed as the
> traffic on Ashbourne Grove has increased already
> with cars / vans from Melbourne Grove to Lordship
> Lane in particular, a number speeding.
>
> In the 10 minutes we visited we saw over three
> cars approach the barrier and turn down Tell
> Grove, a small narrow road which is not equipped
> for this high volume of traffic.


Of course it will take some time for drivers to figure out its no longer a shortcut. This is to be expected (especially on day 1!) and its reasonable to expect it to take awhile to settle down. Will be so much better for all the roads off Melbourne when it does. Give it a month or so.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by exdulwicher June 30, 09:52PM

Quote:
Back in DV, some cars have worked out they can squeeze up and mount the pavement in between the churchyard wall and the last planter and drive on the pavement.. unreal.

Same in Lewisham, there was a tweet earlier which got loads of retweets showing cars driving up over the pavement to get round a recently installed set of planters.

A lot of the problem so far is people ignoring the No Through Road signs up at the top of Woodwarde, driving down there and turning left and then finding that actually the sign meant something. Possibly that there's no through road. 🤦

Then they turn round and race off in a cloud of frustration and exhaust fumes. No matter how many signs you put in, there's always a significant % of drivers think that somehow it doesn't apply to them...

It'll settle in once people stop being such idiots.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by EDAus June 30, 09:58PM

Please provide the evidence for your statement 'Will be so much better for all the roads off Melbourne when it does.'

I am looking forward to reading this while we are blighted by increasing traffic, fumes and speeding.

Many of these cars / vans are coming from Melbourne Grove and roads leading off it, residents on Melbourne Grove South have admitted on social media they will use our road to enter and exit their own road.


bels123 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EDAus Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > We knew the barrier had been installed as the
> > traffic on Ashbourne Grove has increased
> already
> > with cars / vans from Melbourne Grove to
> Lordship
> > Lane in particular, a number speeding.
> >
> > In the 10 minutes we visited we saw over three
> > cars approach the barrier and turn down Tell
> > Grove, a small narrow road which is not
> equipped
> > for this high volume of traffic.
>
>
> Of course it will take some time for drivers to
> figure out its no longer a shortcut. This is to
> be expected (especially on day 1!) and its
> reasonable to expect it to take awhile to settle
> down. Will be so much better for all the roads off
> Melbourne when it does. Give it a month or so.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by first mate June 30, 10:00PM

Given these are emergency measures why, as Ed Aus alludes to, are emergency services not fully in the loop? That strikes me as very odd and, if true, a significant oversight.

Surely those MG residents that asked for this road closure are not themselves continuing to use cars. Shouldnt they now be forced to walk, cycle or take the bus?

KatyKoo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thebestnameshavegone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > They're being asked to implement these measures
> > *specifically* via the ETRO process, by both
> the
> > Mayor, and the DfT, as a way to enable active
> > travel as a response to coronavirus. This is an
> > emergency, and the appropriate tools are being
> > used.
>
> At last a voice of reason smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 30, 10:03pm by first mate.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by EDAus June 30, 10:11PM

Agree first mate it is a major concern, I don't want to be unfair to the service thus I will not be publishing details or names.

It has formed evidence in concerns we have raised with the Local Government Ombudsman, Opposition Party in Southwark, Funding providers (TFL, Mayor), Helen Hayes MP and the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by eastdulwichlocal99 June 30, 10:25PM

EDAus using the terms our road and their road shows the myopic and self serving nature of their views.

This has nothing to do with the traffic arising from local residents on Melbourne Grove or Ashbourne Grove - that traffic will still exist whatever the controls. What WILL change is non residential traffic that will cease to use Melbourne Grove AND surrounding rounds as a cut through. All local residents will benefit!!

No resident owns any of these roads and First Mate should know better. In fact the lack of CPZ on MG South and Ashbourne only further serves to highlight these are PUBLIC highways.

The claim with regards to emergency services smacks of desperation on the part of EDAus and First Mate when ultimately all they (wrongly) fear is an increased flow of traffic onto their own roads...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was june 30, 10:28pm by eastdulwichlocal99.

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