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messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by wulfhound June 23, 05:38PM

Quote:
So we can take it that children, of a non-voting age have participated and been counted within the consultation process? Do you know more about this Wulfhound?

No, I don't know of it at all. Zero information one way or the other. You could presumably FoI it if you wanted.

But equally, I don't think we should dismiss the views of children. Rather, I think their perspective on the world is a valuable one, and that their day to day experiences matter. Do you?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Serena2012 June 23, 05:43PM

And the verdict is in (or at least for the next 18 months). [www.southwark.gov.uk]

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Bicknell June 23, 11:13PM

wulfhound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I think turning consultations in to a popularity contest as seems to have happened in the last few years is a rather silly distraction from the actual aims of the consultation process (which is supposed to be, to discover and, if necessary mitigate, hardships and disbenefits caused by a scheme). "52:48 YOU LOST GET OVARR IT HA HA" doesn't really do anyone any favours.

Agree with you mate. But its what the council have done with this one. And if you're using a result, you've got to be able to back it up. Otherwise you're just spinning fairy tales.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah June 24, 12:20PM

How about creating a segregated bike lane along East Dulwich Grove to link with the good cycling infrastructure over the border in Lambeth (if Southwark aren't going to improve things here).

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Abe_froeman June 24, 12:24PM

Not sure how that would have satisfied the residents of Melbourne Grove?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah June 24, 01:01PM

It doesn't, it's just that if we're not going to make room for people here, Southwark could at least give us a single route out of the borough where we can connect to an area where they have widened pavements, installed segregated bike lanes, installed hire bikes, created low traffic neighbourhoods and where there is a tube station.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rupert james June 24, 01:04PM

You could always move.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by first mate June 24, 01:30PM

Wulfhound,
Okay, but just so we are clear about the level of local support for proposals we need to know exactly who is being consulted and how much weight is given to those views. If the consultation is open to children of any age to express their views then that needs to be clearly flagged, similarly if any old cyclist anywhere in the Borough has an equal voice within the process, that too should be flagged. By that logic anyone, of whatever age, anywhere in the Borough should perhaps also have a say? However, taking all that into consideration, how then can the council claim the majority of locals support something; it is a nonsense. Additionally, how then does the council rationalise their method of measuring support for CPZ on a street by street basis only?

My objection to all of this is around slippery practice and dishonesty by the council, not that I feel the views of all children should be dismissed. That said, whether they should be given equal weight and prominence with those of adult residents is moot.




wulfhound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > So we can take it that children, of a non-voting
> age have participated and been counted within the
> consultation process? Do you know more about this
> Wulfhound?
>
>
> No, I don't know of it at all. Zero information
> one way or the other. You could presumably FoI it
> if you wanted.
>
> But equally, I don't think we should dismiss the
> views of children. Rather, I think their
> perspective on the world is a valuable one, and
> that their day to day experiences matter. Do you?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by exdulwicher June 24, 02:16PM

Quote:
Okay, but just so we are clear about the level of local support for proposals we need to know exactly who is being consulted and how much weight is given to those views.

It's normally anonymised and collated by the time it gets to the council.
You can separate out residents from non-residents by postcode / address / cross reference with voting/council records relatively easily to ensure that people are who they say they are and (depending on how the survey was done - in person, online, postal), there's some clever data management stuff that can tie specific responses to specific people if required but generally, the stuff the council see and act on has already had the statistical analyses done on it.

Once residents / non-residents of any given road or postcode have been split out, you can weight accordingly so that residents get more weight given to their views than just some random person driving down the street once a day.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Abe_froeman June 24, 02:47PM

"You can separate out residents from non-residents by postcode / address / cross reference with voting/council records"

Did they actually do that though?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah June 24, 02:58PM

rupert james Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You could always move.

Yeah, anyone who wants any change in the area, even a single bike lane, should probably move.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by first mate June 24, 03:52PM

Although it was once implied by one of the cycling advocates on here that if you couldnít cycle to your place of work that perhaps you should consider moving!

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah June 24, 04:24PM

first mate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Although it was once implied by one of the cycling
> advocates on here that if you couldnít cycle to
> your place of work that perhaps you should
> consider moving!

Well if someone who owns a bike said something once...

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by exdulwicher June 25, 04:27PM


messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3attachment
Posted by dande June 26, 11:07AM

I've just seen a heatmap of Dulwich House Prices (thanks to the mapping tools available on Zoopla). It brought a wry smile to my face, in the context of all the discussions about where the traffic displaced by the Dulwich Village road closures will end up. Unsurprisingly, the boundaries of the "Our Healthy Streets" initiative correspond - almost precisely - to the boundaries of the most expensive residential cluster in Dulwich. We're being encouraged by the Council to "reimagine" this expensive cluster of streets. Reimagine it how? As an even more privileged bubble than it is already (with all the traffic pushed to the less affluent areas outside the bubble)?

As I have noted previously, I am happy to accept that change has to start somewhere...and that "somewhere" usually means the more affluent and gentrified zones. But I do think it would lead to more equitable outcomes if we could all be a bit more honest about exactly who benefits (and who doesn't) from the Council's decisions. The Council can't be expected to please all the people all the time. But it can, at least, treat its constituents as adults; instead of infantilising us with the suggestion that the proposed road closures are socially progressive.

Attachments: Heat Map of Dulwich House Prices.jpg (536.2KB)  
messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by slarti b June 26, 12:19PM

Indeed, the question of diverted traffic resulting from OHS, or indeed the temporary closure of DV junction, has not been addressed at all by the Council. Croxted Road is in Lambeth but I am surprised that Councillors for the East Dulwich Wards have not considered the effect on Lordship Lane and EDG. I suspect Half Moon Lane will also see increases.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Bicknell June 26, 06:52PM

Agree with you @dande. Close Dulwich village junction, and all the traffic gets pushed on East Dulwich. Nice look for a Labour council.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by exdulwicher June 26, 07:30PM

There's some recently released info, data, graphics etc here that do a good job of explaining the Low Traffic Neighbourhood plans.
This is Strategic Neighbourhood Analysis:
[content.tfl.gov.uk]

And here's the TfL guidance for Low Traffic Neighbourhoods:
[content.tfl.gov.uk]

London-wide look, not just Southwark but all councils are legally obliged to be doing this now.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by heartblock June 27, 10:28AM

East Dulwich Grove needs a bike lane, it will encourage bike use on this road. It makes more sense to Ďcloseí the other side of Melbourne Grove, a very dangerous junction and overused as a short-cut. The side that is being closed is relatively quiet, is not over-used as a short cut and is full of high priced housing. I have lived here for 30 years and walk along all these roads regularly.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Sally Eva June 27, 03:14PM

It would be very difficult to fit a bike lane into EDG without removing parking. The traffic is too copious and too fast for an unprotected bike lane. In theory EDG has been traffic-calmed for bikes but in practice cyclists do not use it because it is unsafe.

When I need to go to JAGS (for the sports centre) I always take the bus. There are very few ways to get from Nunhead to Dulwich using backstreets (because of all the school playing fields) and the direct route along EDG is too dangerous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 27, 03:14pm by Sally Eva.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by heartblock June 28, 08:44AM

Protected bike lane and parking on one side after the corner. There are lots of empty parking spaces never used at the back of the estate. The private schools make room on site for coaches....there is room. Speed cameras to stop speeding and humps removed. Could be achieved if the will is there.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Sally Eva June 28, 10:01AM

Removing parking is very difficult as a glance around this forum will show you. If by the corner you mean on the approach to the Townley Road lights, then yes, there is room for protection there. However people have to get there and along the straight run of EDG a third of the road is parking.

I don't understand your remark about removing humps. The square cushions cause drivers to drive down the middle of the road at speed. Sinusoidal humps all the way across the road are more effective than cameras at reducing speed. EDG has got raised tables to help pedestrians cross and slow traffic.

Cushions are dangerous to cyclists because on-coming traffic in the middle of the road is dangerous. Sinusoidal humps are fine in themselves and slow traffic. Raised tables force cyclists into the middle of the road (see previous point) and cyclists need bypasses ie lowered curbs to allow them to avoid the pinch point. Bypasses will not work if the road is continuously parked (as EDG generally is) because cars park right up to the bypasses blocking them up. If the bypasses are protected with double yellow lines, residents complain about the reduction in parking spaces.

The dangerousness of EDG for cycling is a real problem. I don't know the solution. Traffic thins after the Red Post Hill junction and it makes sense that a lot of this traffic is cutting through Dulwich.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Metallic June 28, 10:38AM

In the perfect world for cyclists and pedestrians after the Calton Avenue/Court Lane junction is closed, cyclists can enjoy meeting all the cars on Calton Avenue that will funnel off up roads like Dekker road, Druce Road, and Dovercourt Road. Not closing the other end of Calton Avenue too, which it seems from the excuse of the closures already announced, would at least have done the job.
I am not a member of One Dulwich or any campaign group - I can just see the stupidity of this solo closure.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by first mate June 28, 11:29AM

I donít think Southwark Cyclists care. This is about their fanatical car free vision for ED. Once they have helped the council realise mass CPZ letís see how much car parking suddenly becomes available again, once itís a source of income for the Council.

If you require a car for work too bad, if you work too far to use a bike, again too bad, if you are not fit enough to negotiate the very steep hills either end of ED, too bad, if you feel to nervous to cycle at night, too bad. Letís not forget that representatives of Southwark Cycling have also implied that people who do not live close enough to cycle to their workplace should move. Itís a very rigid way of thinking.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by thebestnameshavegone June 29, 09:03AM

Car parking is the lowest use of public space ever devised. Free car parking, doubly so.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah June 29, 01:57PM

thebestnameshavegone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Car parking is the lowest use of public space ever
> devised. Free car parking, doubly so.

Totally agree. The amount of public space we give over to motor vehicles and long term car storage is a joke. With typically two lanes of parked cars and two lanes of moving traffic on most residential roads, there is little left for people. That said, CPZs only entrench the idea that cars have an unquestionable right to dominate public space. Personally, I would like to see a lot of space reallocated away from car storage, to prioritising bikes and people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 29, 02:06pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah June 29, 02:00PM

The planters have gone in today and look great. Now we need to get something done to make space for people in ED. Whilst I support the measures in the village, why Southwark have identified one of the most affluent and lowest density areas as the priority for creating more space for people is questionable. Let's see some work done over the border quickly please.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by 73jem June 29, 03:17PM

I think that the main object is to try to make the crossing to the shops and the schools less dangerous for pedestrians, as well as making crossing the main road safer for cyclists. True that it also seems to have made an attractive space in the center of the village.

There seems to be quite a lot of traffic coming down Court Lane towards the village and either turning round or going left up Dekker Road. I don't know if there is a sign at the far end of Court Lane to warn drivers of the closure. Hopefully drivers will work out that it would be best to stick to the main roads.

Traffic from Turney Road which would have gone across into Calton Avenue was turning left into the main road without a problem.

So maybe it will not be the disaster that so many seem to fear?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 29, 03:52pm by 73jem.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Abe_froeman June 29, 03:36PM

The traffic looks dreadful right now on google maps. particularly along Dulwich Village and EDG

[www.google.com]

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by exdulwicher June 29, 04:04PM

To be fair, it's no worse than most of SE London. South Circular all the way from Tulse Hill to LL is solid, Herne Hill is dark red around the main junction. Crystal Palace and The Triangle looks rammed as well.

Might go for a bike ride one afternoon this week and see if I can get some pictures.

The DV junction is already updated in Google Maps and Waze as closed so hopefully a lot of sat nav directed traffic will settle in quite quickly. It's the people who drive local trips without checking stuff like that that get caught out initially, they generally soon learn to re-route even if it's learning the hard way initially!

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