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messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Abe_froeman September 12, 02:18PM

It is not not picking at all ex dulwicher.

The current mayor imposed the congestion charge decision. You cant possibky claim it was the tories because the Tory candidate or mayor says he will reverse it immediately if elected.

All these problems on the road are the fault of our mayor and our council.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 12, 02:42PM

"Yes but traffic was nowhere near as bad on that section of road prior to the closures being put in.....but you know that already."

You're suggesting that traffic was heavy north sound on Lordship Lane between The Plough and the skate park at the Old Harvester because of an east/west closure on Dulwich Village?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets September 12, 04:33PM

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Yes but traffic was nowhere near as bad on that
> section of road prior to the closures being put
> in.....but you know that already."
>
> You're suggesting that traffic was heavy north
> sound on Lordship Lane between The Plough and the
> skate park at the Old Harvester because of an
> east/west closure on Dulwich Village?

Yes I am. It's logical. The DV junction was a key route east/west across Dulwich and it is now closed so traffic is being forced to take other routes. The delays southbound on Lordship Lane around the Grove Tavern is because of traffic queuing to turn right onto the A205 and I suspect much of that traffic would have used to have gone via the DV junction.

It was the issue we all kept flagging with these closures from the outset - they push traffic onto Lordship Lane, East Dulwich Grove and parts of the A205 and create congestion and increased pollution as a result.

At about 1.30pm this afternoon Lordship Lane going northbound was nose-to-tail from outside Moxons to the Goose Green roundabout. It cleared about an hour later - I was sitting in Signoria cafe watching it but I suspect it was being caused by the flow of traffic coming from the North Dulwich end of EDG trying to filter onto Lordship Lane - once again increased because of the closure of a key east/west route.

When they close Townley during rush-hour it will get worse again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 12, 07:32pm by Rockets.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Townleygreen September 12, 05:45PM

Rockets, I think you mean Southbound at the Grove Tavern junction, towards F Hill.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 12, 07:25PM

So the solution to pollution and congestion on the South Circular is to take traffic off A roads and push it back onto residential, speed humped roads? Weird.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets September 12, 07:33PM

Townleygreen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rockets, I think you mean Southbound at the Grove
> Tavern junction, towards F Hill.


You're right...I was never very good at geography...updated now!

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets September 12, 07:38PM

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So the solution to pollution and congestion on the
> South Circular is to take traffic off A roads and
> push it back onto residential, speed humped roads?
> Weird.

No the solution was to not create a problem by closing the DV junction in the first place. If they hadn't have done that traffic would not be queuing southbound from the library to the Grove Tavern. It's really not that difficult to comprehend what is happening since the closures went in. Maybe it will be temporary, as the council suggests and cars will evaporate. But what if it isn't - it is making pollution worse so completely negates the point of the closures.

Lordship Lane this afternoon was awful, I actually thought there might have been an accident - I have never seen it that bad along the main shopping part of the Lane before and the pollution must have been higher than normal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 12, 07:40pm by Rockets.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Dulwichgirl82 September 12, 07:50PM

Agree re lordship lane today, it actually makes me concerned about its viability as if it stays like this its likely to drive customers away. It definitely puts me off spending time there. East dulwich road was also very busy next to the park and playground.


Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So the solution to pollution and congestion on
> the
> > South Circular is to take traffic off A roads
> and
> > push it back onto residential, speed humped
> roads?
> > Weird.
>
> No the solution was to not create a problem by
> closing the DV junction in the first place. If
> they hadn't have done that traffic would not be
> queuing southbound from the library to the Grove
> Tavern. It's really not that difficult to
> comprehend what is happening since the closures
> went in. Maybe it will be temporary, as the
> council suggests and cars will evaporate. But what
> if it isn't - it is making pollution worse so
> completely negates the point of the closures.
>
> Lordship Lane this afternoon was awful, I actually
> thought there might have been an accident - I have
> never seen it that bad along the main shopping
> part of the Lane before and the pollution must
> have been higher than normal.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Spartacus September 12, 08:45PM

Wil72 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone set up a petition yet? I can see that
> residents in Wandsworth have done one for the same
> reason on Change.org


On tonight's London news they reported that there are demonstrations in various London boroughs today and that yesterday Wandsworth did a U turn on the LTNs and is now removing barriers.

Hopefully the Souhwark based petition will have the same effect and the council will do a proper consultation exercise that listens to what people actually want and not a few vocal locals !


Edited to add link to story [www.wandsworth.gov.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 12, 09:21pm by Spartacus.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by tiddles September 13, 05:29AM

The congestion is basically caused but a lot of traffic having to do two sides of a triangle rather than straight up the obvious route. Also the lights have not been adjusted - for example at the dulwich village / east dulwich grove junction only 2-3 cars can turn right - and a lot of the jam in the village is cars wanting to turn right. If a filter were introduced that could smooth things?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by first mate September 13, 07:26AM

Good point but I am not convinced smoothing things is the aim.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah September 13, 07:33AM

tiddles Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The congestion is basically caused but a lot of
> traffic having to do two sides of a triangle
> rather than straight up the obvious route. Also
> the lights have not been adjusted - for example at
> the dulwich village / east dulwich grove junction
> only 2-3 cars can turn right - and a lot of the
> jam in the village is cars wanting to turn right.
> If a filter were introduced that could smooth
> things?

The lights there definitely need rephasing.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by JohnL September 13, 12:35PM

An alternative is allowing only 50% of cars out on every other day - they did this in Athens years ago I think they call it Road Rationing.

It moves away from "nudge unit" politics into banning people from taking out cars on certain days however.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by JohnL September 13, 12:47PM

Spartacus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wil72 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Has anyone set up a petition yet? I can see
> that
> > residents in Wandsworth have done one for the
> same
> > reason on Change.org
>
>
> On tonight's London news they reported that there
> are demonstrations in various London boroughs
> today and that yesterday Wandsworth did a U turn
> on the LTNs and is now removing barriers.
>
> Hopefully the Souhwark based petition will have
> the same effect and the council will do a proper
> consultation exercise that listens to what people
> actually want and not a few vocal locals !
>
>
> Edited to add link to story
> [www.wandsworth.gov.uk]
> low-traffic-neighbourhood-trials-suspended/

They haven't given up - they're coming out with alternatives
traffic must be reduced and that's a fact of life - it's just how to do it fairly.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Metallic September 13, 12:50PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tiddles Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The congestion is basically caused but a lot of
> > traffic having to do two sides of a triangle
> > rather than straight up the obvious route. Also
> > the lights have not been adjusted - for example
> at
> > the dulwich village / east dulwich grove
> junction
> > only 2-3 cars can turn right - and a lot of the
> > jam in the village is cars wanting to turn
> right.
> > If a filter were introduced that could smooth
> > things?
>
> The lights there definitely need rephasing.

Apparently I heard from about third passer on that the TfL box for EDG cannot simply be altered, or filtered, a new box I guess is required.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by dulwichquine September 13, 01:58PM

Is there a petition underway to oppose the changes through Dulwich Village/Calton Avenue? If so, can anyone post a link?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Abe_froeman September 13, 03:08PM

The council would have known they would not be able to impske any changes on the junction of EDG that affect the timing for buses heading south then west.

It's the same stumbling block James Barber described on here when people asked why the junction at the other end of EDG could not be made safer for pedestrians

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by ab29 September 13, 04:00PM

dulwichquine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there a petition underway to oppose the changes
> through Dulwich Village/Calton Avenue? If so, can
> anyone post a link?


Petition: [www.change.org]

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by alice September 13, 05:40PM

Ab that’s just for Melbourne rd area.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Artemis September 13, 05:53PM

[eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is]
And
[dulwichvillagestreetspace.commonplace.is]
These both allow comments about the changes.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets September 13, 07:18PM

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> An alternative is allowing only 50% of cars out on
> every other day - they did this in Athens years
> ago I think they call it Road Rationing.
>
> It moves away from "nudge unit" politics into
> banning people from taking out cars on certain
> days however.

Was it not the case that in Athens they had odd-number and even-number alternating number plate days to try to combat the pollution and a lot of Athenians just went out a bought a second car to ensure they could alternate and avoid the ban?

Wandsworth seem to be piling part of the blame for removing their LTNs on TFL and the measures they are implementing...this becomes more and more political and I do wonder whether all Tory councils will remove them.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by dulwichfolk September 13, 07:40PM

With regards the light rephasing/filtering maybe tfl are waiting for Southwark council to decide what changes they want.

If they changed them now and then the northbound traffic is blocked due to bus gates this would negate the whole process

Maybe changing the lights here will worsen things in Herne Hill or at the townley road junction...

Tfl planners may actually consider consequences of their actions unlike others

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Spartacus September 13, 08:01PM

Rockets : I don't think it's because Wandsworth is slightly majority Tory
They had pressure from their voters and as tfl are making other changes they decide to retreat and review



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 13, 08:04pm by Spartacus.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 14, 09:25AM

I don't know why people are interpreting changes and cancellations to individual measures as a retreat. The changes are experimental and temporary - it's inevitable and desirable that some of them are going to get binned or altered.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets September 14, 12:22PM

It is a retreat because they are not working and creating more problems than they are solving and politicians want to distance themselves from the problems they are causing. At the moment they are impacting far more people than they are benefiting and as people see gridlocked streets caused by displacement they are challenging whether the plans are going to actually make things worse.

The far bigger worry remains that such a poorly executed attempt to make change will impact the longer-term viability of properly addressing the issues as no politician will want to go near it.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Abe_froeman September 14, 01:36PM

The heavily antagonistic approach to these changes by certain factions and lobby groups won't help with that either Rockets.

They've not really made any effort at all to win hearts and minds on this.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by exdulwicher September 14, 01:44PM

Quote:
It is a retreat because they are not working and creating more problems than they are solving and politicians want to distance themselves from the problems they are causing.

It's a retreat for the second reason. There wasn't anywhere near enough time to ascertain effectiveness - it's been said before on here and other threads that it takes about 6 months for everything to settle down and this is known about with most road schemes, alterations etc.

The council spent no time on framing the issues, engaging with residents, communicating the changes, highlighting the positives and there was no commitment to supporting complementary innovations like Walking Buses (for kids to get to school) or bike share schemes or permitting pop-up businesses in any of the closed areas.

They've squandered money (ironically given to a Tory Council by a Tory Government at the specific behest of Government policy, they've lost whatever goodwill they may have had and they've made it far harder for themselves in trying to change things in future.

Honestly, spineless local Government is the major stumbling block in all of these schemes and plans. It's why things get watered down to be beyond useless as consultation after consultation is ambushed by vocal NIMBYs and the councillors immediately fall over themselves to appease rather than explain. And far from being democracy, it's simply a case of shouting loudest.
Quote:
The far bigger worry remains that such a poorly executed attempt to make change will impact the longer-term viability of properly addressing the issues as no politician will want to go near it.

Exactly this @Rockets, the council have just blown any possible chances of progression. The anti-LTN side see it as a victory for shouting loudly and protesting, the pro-LTN side haven't had a chance to see any benefits of the scheme, the council have no modelling data worth a damn because it wasn't left in place long enough and the residents (and all the through traffic) see it as carte blanche to just drive anywhere, anytime. What a failure.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Abe_froeman September 14, 02:21PM

Lol. The shoe is on the other foot now...

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah September 14, 02:36PM

Wandsworth have knee jerked at the inevitable push back from a long indulged and entitled minority being asked to share a bit more space with others. Interestingly though, the traffic jams caused by increases in people cycling and driving coming out of the lockdown (and as a result of people avoiding public transport in the face of COVID), have not eased. It will be interesting to see what people put congestion down to now that all the planters have been removed AND the alternatives to using a car in areas like Tooting, are to become less appealing once more.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah September 14, 02:38PM

...hopefully other Councils will show more leadership and allow the trials to run their full course. It will give an opportunity for people to genuinely compare and contrast .

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