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messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by malumbu October 15, 04:41PM

Let's just close (some) roads. Things will readjust. I drive once or twice a week. Once or twice a year you get a perfect storm where due to an accident, roadworks, whatever, there is grid lock. I hate it, but then forget it. Theyv'e closed roads, introduced one ways, traffic calmed, congestion charged, ULEZed, parking zones etc etc ever since I've lived in London. Things readjust.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by FairTgirl October 15, 06:09PM

Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All, whilst many of us welcomed Cllr McAsh's
> comments yesterday upon closer inspection there is
> little substance in his post and some alarm bells
> are ringing for me.
>
> I posted on the Councillor thread but am pasting
> below some of the questions as I think a lot of
> the points raised by his post deserve some
> discussion and my concern is that there is not a
> definitive timeline for review being shared by the
> council (yet) and the displacement is now
> impacting all roads across the area (Underhill,
> Overhill, Crystal Palace Road, Upland Road, Wood
> Vale etc) as people try to work their way around
> the displacement.
>
> What we need right now is the same swift decisions
> the council made to implement these closures to
> review them and make the urgent changes to try and
> turn back the dial on the damage they are doing.
>
>
>
>
> - When will the council be reviewing the data -
> data collection went in some time after the
> closures so what is the timeline for the review?
> - We kept being told by the council that pollution
> monitoring was too expense so how are you able to
> do that now and what baseline will you be using?
> - Are we expected to live with the negative impact
> for the next 6 months whilst the council collects
> the data?
> - Will the next phases of the closures be put on
> hold or does the council still plan on
> implementing them?
> - Your comment regarding Matham Grove etc worries
> me as you seem to be focussed on putting measures
> in place to deal with the displacement rather than
> focussing on the source of the displacement. This
> would suggest to me that you think action to
> remedy the problem may not be forthcoming or a
> long way off. Is the council commitment to
> resolving the source of the problem? We do not
> need a sticking plaster approach to this.
> - Given your admission of not consulting with
> shopkeepers on Melbourne Grove (and your
> subsequent apology) will you be forced to remove
> those immediately as this is in direct
> contravention of the powers given to you by the
> government to put these in place?

Agree with your concerns post Cllr McAsh Blog post.

There needs to be more teeth to this. It does all sound a bit never never and obviously businesses are very concerned, especially given we are entering Tier 2 and are terrified about future.

And 100% agree with your final point - they do all now admit they did not follow anything close to adequate consultation - I would have thought the correct thing to do would be to immediately remove an intervention for which they clearly did not follow correct procedure or do a complete Community or Equality Impact Assessment.

Businesses have stated they are very willing to enter into immediate conversations about what may be needed to replace them to safeguard pupils in particular but the right action, right now, would be to remove them as quickly as they went in and remedy the complete lack of trust local business now have in Southwark.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Mrs D October 15, 06:42PM

Just getting home from work - I have never seen so much traffic in Dulwich! Packed all through the village, all of EDG, full length of Calton and Townley plus cars backed up on all side roads. Quite a long stretch on Turney too. Impact of LTN in the village plus maybe an increase in car usage due to Covid?

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by sally buying October 15, 06:47PM

Or because of a broken water main on south circular with traffic having no where to go because of closures

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Mrs D October 15, 06:51PM

Ah that explains it! Never seen anything like it. Glad that it’s a temporary thing. Not fun for those stuck in it though.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Serena2012 October 15, 06:58PM

Sally is right. This evening’s complete and utter traffic chaos which I observed on the nursery run between 5.40 and 6.40 consisted of traffic queuing all the way from the junction of Townley/ EDG down Calton to the junction of Woodwarde and then down Woodwarde; traffic at a complete standstill going towards the EDG/ Red Post Hill/ Village Way junction through Dulwich Village; traffic going Southbound down EDG queuing all the way from the junction of Townley beyond Charter ED and the Medical Centre; huge queues on Burbage at the junction of Turney Road; Turney much busier than usual. This is yet another example of why these closures are so ill thought through. The minute one of the few remaining significant open roads goes down, in this case, the South Circular at Dulwich Common, chaos reigns supreme. Exactly the same thing happened a month ago when Denmark Hill was closed.

However, I can happily report that my stretch of EDG is actually quieter than it has been since early September this evening (presumably because all the vehicles that usually idle outside are stuck in traffic elsewhere), so perhaps to take a leaf out of the book of some of the other commentators on this thread, I should be lobbying Southwark to permanently close Dulwich Common!!!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit was october 15, 07:02pm by Serena2012.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by heartblock October 15, 07:41PM

EDG got significantly worse later, but yes, if the side roads are ‘gated’ then there is no run off when there is an issue.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets October 15, 08:06PM

Same thing happened after the nasty motorcycle accident on Lordship Lane earlier this week (an accident incidentally that queuing traffic contributed to) as when the police closed Lordship Lane near Overhill the traffic had no option but to go east and as a result all of the roads around Goodrich etc were gridlocked as they had no other option.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by smooch October 15, 09:15PM

its a disaster

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by heartblock October 16, 08:24AM

Time to re-think this ridiculous polluting and dangerous ‘experiment’.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by ab29 October 16, 08:50AM

heartblock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Time to re-think this ridiculous polluting and
> dangerous ‘experiment’.


Hear, hear!

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 01:04PM

Before a few streets in Ed were filtered to traffic, the closure of the South Circular in both directions, wouldn't have even been noticed. The roads moved freely and pollution barely existed. Yesterday's traffic was almost certainly down to lorries no longer being able to block EDG whilst trying unsuccessfully to turn into Melbourne Grove - that used to keep things moving.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 01:06pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 01:33PM

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's just close (some) roads. Things will
> readjust. I drive once or twice a week. Once or
> twice a year you get a perfect storm where due to
> an accident, roadworks, whatever, there is grid
> lock. I hate it, but then forget it. Theyv'e
> closed roads, introduced one ways, traffic calmed,
> congestion charged, ULEZed, parking zones etc etc
> ever since I've lived in London. Things readjust.

this ^

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets October 16, 01:46PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Before a few streets in Ed were filtered to
> traffic, the closure of the South Circular in both
> directions, wouldn't have even been noticed. The
> roads moved freely and pollution barely existed.
> Yesterday's traffic was almost certainly down to
> lorries no longer being able to block EDG whilst
> trying unsuccessfully to turn into Melbourne Grove
> - that used to keep things moving.


You ok rahrahrah - that's one hell of a U-turn you've just done! winking smiley

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 02:06PM

Never say I am not willing to change my mind! :-)

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Metallic October 16, 03:32PM

Rant:

I guess if you want to live in Utopia, not go further than a couple of miles for your food, entertainment, schools and doctor, this life must be OK for you. But I reckon if you have a wider lifestyle, family and friendship circle, catching Covid on loads of buses to get where you want to be, or standing in the rain waiting for the fewer trains, is not much fun.

Not everyone has small children at school a few hundred yards from home (I did once, of course) but horizons do widen and I for one need my car. I do not want to be looked down on by a load of cyclists because I am actually driving it. Not everyone has the luxury of working from home. The reason the roads have so much rush hour traffic is that people are trying to earn a crust, they have to travel with or to work, they have to build, paint, mend your roof, put up your scaffold, mow your lawn, deliver, whatever, to other people. Other people like you.

Some people are old.

Before the junction closed, life was much more straightforward, but it seems that for the hour or so a day that the children go in to school, we are all to be inconvenienced forever by massive traffic jams no matter where you would like to go. A train journey involving three changes is probably quicker than driving these days, but I don't want to sit by Mr or Mrs Covid thanks.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 03:50PM

Who would want to live in a uptopia. Sounds awful.

Not sure a few filtered streets is anyone’s idea of the Promised Land though.

You can drive anywhere you want. You’re just being asked not to use an handful of streets to cut through from one main road to another. It does mean some inconvenience. But then rat running does also cause inconvenience.

I am pretty sure that most people using a bike to get around at a particular moment in time won’t be looking down at you. They probably drive too.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 03:51PM

Yes, some people are old. I can’t disagree with that statement.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 03:53PM

A significant number of car journeys in london are only a couple of miles btw.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 03:54pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Metallic October 16, 04:23PM

Maybe they are short because the driver can't walk that far, or has too many kids to handle plus shopping, come on, it was a free country and now it isn't. I visit old friends of mine during the day as I am now retired, but really trying to even get to Sunnyhill Road is an expedition now.

Anyway rahrahrah, I feel better for the rant.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets October 16, 04:56PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A significant number of car journeys in london are
> only a couple of miles btw.


Let's dive a little deeper into that because I know Cllr McAsh said in his blog that the majority of journeys in London can be walked or cycled.

Here's TFLs data

35% of all car trips are shorter than 2km.
32% are between 2km and 5km.
30+% are over 5km.

What I can't find from TFL is whether taxis and private hire vehicles are included in these stats - which would of course skew them massively in central London.

People can make their own minds up now based on the actual data.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 04:58PM

@rockets.

So 67% of car trips under 3 miles. I would describe that as 'significant'.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 05:05PM

Metallic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe they are short because the driver can't walk
> that far, or has too many kids to handle plus
> shopping, come on, it was a free country and now
> it isn't. I visit old friends of mine during the
> day as I am now retired, but really trying to even
> get to Sunnyhill Road is an expedition now.
>
> Anyway rahrahrah, I feel better for the rant.

It's still a free country Metallic, honest. The ED forum was made for rants ...I hope so anyway, otherwise I've been misusing it for quite a few years!

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by smooch October 16, 05:26PM

Dulwich village total gridlock once again - it’s not moving at all - lights are changing but no one is going anywhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 05:29pm by smooch.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 05:30PM

I think the south circular is going to be closed at least until Monday

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by northbank October 16, 05:32PM

Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rahrahrah Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A significant number of car journeys in london
> are
> > only a couple of miles btw.
>
>
> Let's dive a little deeper into that because I
> know Cllr McAsh said in his blog that the majority
> of journeys in London can be walked or cycled.
>
> Here's TFLs data
>
> 35% of all car trips are shorter than 2km.
> 32% are between 2km and 5km.
> 30+% are over 5km.
>
> What I can't find from TFL is whether taxis and
> private hire vehicles are included in these stats
> - which would of course skew them massively in
> central London.
>
> People can make their own minds up now based on
> the actual data.

They are private car trips. Taxi and PHV trips are recorded as that and are a tiny percentage compared with private car. The Travel in London report combines them both into 'Taxi' at 1% of all trips with car at 35%
[content.tfl.gov.uk]

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by Rockets October 16, 05:35PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @rockets.
>
> So 67% of car trips under 3 miles. I would
> describe that as 'significant'.


But can they all be walked or cycled? A 6 mile roundtrip would be a significant distance for many would it not - especially given Dulwich is surrounded by significant hills on most sides?

As I have said before I think you can make a dent in the 35% shorter than 2kms but that's about it. That leaves 60%+ that are most likely always going to be done in a car. And I would be very interested to know what TFL counts as a car journey and whether private hire and taxis are included with that.

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 05:36PM

That’s actually pretty crazy. If true 67% of car journeys in London are less than a 15 minutes bike ride

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by northbank October 16, 05:38PM

Metallic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe they are short because the driver can't walk
> that far, or has too many kids to handle plus
> shopping,

but most of them aren't
[content.tfl.gov.uk]

messageRe: Our Healthy Streets - Dulwich: Phase 3
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 05:38PM

Sorry, cross posted. 3 miles in a bike is very little. Not everyone will be able to do that and even some very short journeys clearly need a car if you’re carrying large objects etc.

But some of those journeys (67%!), must be able to be changed. Under 3 miles you’re looking at 10 - 15 minutes

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