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messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by Yeslovewhatcanigetu May 02, 07:46AM

Weve been failed by a government bathing in the glow of British exceptionalism and not enacting sensible measures at the appropriate time. Weve suffered from underfunding essential services, not providing appropriate PPE and leaving care homes out to dry as the residents are old and therefore not seen as a priority. This has got very little to do with people jogging, walking, sitting in parks enjoying a bit of sunshine or buying ice creams and respecting distancing measures as they do it.

edcam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are no soft options. This country is
> failing badly. In no small part due to the lack
> of observation of the rules. This mentality of
> "being kind" about it and "what's the problem if
> people are distancing" is one of the reasons we
> have one of the worst death rates in Europe. It's
> not OK to go out unless you are exercising or
> shopping and even then you need to be careful.
> Why is your exceptionalism more important than
> anything else? Go to the park but don't sit
> around in it.
>
> binkylilyput Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The point being that those with available
> outside
> > space need to be kinder and stop finger
> pointing
> > at those who choose to sit down in a park within
> a
> > safe distance from others for a little bit.
> >
> > Not having outside space available (which the
> vast
> > majority of East Dulwichers do) during this
> time
> > is really harsh.
> >
> > As with most things, this lockdown is hitting
> the
> > socially disadvantaged hardest.......and the
> > judgements and scandal from people who have no
> > need to sit in a park is really shameful.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by binkylilyput May 02, 09:19AM

Its easy to judge from the comfort of your lovely garden

I wonder what some peoples home lives are like that make them decide that a short sit in an open space is warranted

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by Cyclemonkey May 02, 10:34AM

Millions of people, especially in London, are living in overcrowded or unsuitable housing. Others may be experiencing domestic abuse.

Or simply it could be they are working hard in a small flat with little or no outdoor space and need a few minutes to themselves.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by dbboy May 02, 02:27PM

here we go again, it's so easy to find fault, suppose you'd like a different Govt, now let me guess what that may be???

Rather than being negative, how about everyone coming together for the national good. You, me, no one knows how long this lock down will go on for. It's about stopping the NHS being over whelmed, unlike other healthcare systems in other European countries, saving lives doing so by staying home and only going out when necessary.

At some future date no doubt there'll be a Select Committee will scrutinise the actions of the Govt. in relation to how they handles Covid 19. Being a Minister right now, be it health, business, home, FCO or which ever one you choose is probably the hardest bit of the job they've ever had to go. None of them where trained to deal with this, they're doing the best they can based on the information given to them by the different organisations feeding into them.

Yeslovewhatcanigetu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Weve been failed by a government bathing in the
> glow of British exceptionalism and not enacting
> sensible measures at the appropriate time. Weve
> suffered from underfunding essential services, not
> providing appropriate PPE and leaving care homes
> out to dry as the residents are old and therefore
> not seen as a priority. This has got very little
> to do with people jogging, walking, sitting in
> parks enjoying a bit of sunshine or buying ice
> creams and respecting distancing measures as they
> do it.
>
> edcam Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There are no soft options. This country is
> > failing badly. In no small part due to the
> lack
> > of observation of the rules. This mentality of
> > "being kind" about it and "what's the problem
> if
> > people are distancing" is one of the reasons we
> > have one of the worst death rates in Europe.
> It's
> > not OK to go out unless you are exercising or
> > shopping and even then you need to be careful.
> > Why is your exceptionalism more important than
> > anything else? Go to the park but don't sit
> > around in it.
> >
> > binkylilyput Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The point being that those with available
> > outside
> > > space need to be kinder and stop finger
> > pointing
> > > at those who choose to sit down in a park
> within
> > a
> > > safe distance from others for a little bit.
> > >
> > > Not having outside space available (which the
> > vast
> > > majority of East Dulwichers do) during this
> > time
> > > is really harsh.
> > >
> > > As with most things, this lockdown is hitting
> > the
> > > socially disadvantaged hardest.......and the
> > > judgements and scandal from people who have
> no
> > > need to sit in a park is really shameful.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by Yeslovewhatcanigetu May 02, 02:53PM

In fairness you know nothing of my political leanings and Id criticise a government of any colours, if I felt they were failing us. And thats what I think of this government. Im absolutely up for coming together in the national interest, I just think that berating those that want to buy an ice cream isnt the way to do it.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by JohnL May 02, 03:02PM

26th May being bandied around as a possible first relaxation of the lockdown

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by twinhunters May 02, 03:18PM

Cant believe so many people are out n about , definitely not lockdown here sad smiley

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by malumbu May 02, 03:31PM

There are some serious failings, go to any of the more serious TV programmes (I only do Peston and Newsnight generally but the non-terrestrial channels will have their serious programmes too) and hear some people who are experts. As I say some of this is fine in hindsight but someone else pointed out that we are where we are with regards to preparations but response is another issue. I expect that those not following social distancing are only are now only a relatively minor contribution as compared to not ensuring that our front line response facilities are not keeping free of Coronavirus.

It is fair to challenge government - a poor Cabinet without anyone taking proper charge in the PMs absence. To be politically neutral the implosion and near implosion of the Lib Dems and Labour party hasn't helped but it is not for them to come up with ways forward - unless as part of a government of national unity. We are not in a single party state, and whilst there are things to admire about China in terms of the thoroughness of response (and lots to criticise too) few of us would prefer their from of government. Or we could be split down the middle like the states where half the population think the President is an idiot, and the other half...... Oh and the big B elephant in the room.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by KidKruger May 02, 06:20PM

Relaxation of the lockdown which hasn't even started yet ?
Yep - sounds like the UK !

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 26th May being bandied around as a possible first
> relaxation of the lockdown



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was may 02, 06:20pm by KidKruger.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by NewWave May 02, 06:38PM

Yeslovewhatcanigetu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In fairness you know nothing of my political
> leanings and Id criticise a government of any
> colours, if I felt they were failing us. And
> thats what I think of this government. Im
> absolutely up for coming together in the national
> interest, I just think that berating those that
> want to buy an ice cream isnt the way to do it.

Well said!

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by JohnL May 02, 07:27PM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Relaxation of the lockdown which hasn't even
> started yet ?
> Yep - sounds like the UK !
>
> JohnL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 26th May being bandied around as a possible
> first
> > relaxation of the lockdown

our lockdown doesn't compare to Spain where they only just got allowed out to exercise.

even if we eventually have an inquiry i'm not sure how they would measure success or failure -the government is going to be adamant they did the best they could and i don't think we'll see much about the decisions made (in SAGE for instance)

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by holloway May 02, 07:50PM

Lordship lane and Dulwich park were absolutely heaving this afternoon, I was walking home from work incidentally. Maybe the lockdown measures should be toughened. In Spain people were literally confined indoors.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by lindylou May 02, 07:59PM

Had enough now. I started this thread about the people sitting on the benches outside the Palmerston on Lordship Lane. Once again, I had to go to Lloyds pharmacy on North Ross Road to collect a prescription. 3.20om, every bench outside the pub was taken up by luvvies with their takeaway coffees, 3 or 4 at each table, enjoying the sun. Not at all bothered. Well Palmerston pub, your benches might be fixed to the ground but there's no excuse. Enjoy your fine. Reporting you.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by jimlad48 May 02, 08:06PM

Well you're a miserable person. Perhaps you should stay indoors and accept that if people are following guidelines, or trying to, there isn't that much of an issue.

Sorry, but if you're going to moan about people being outside, you need to accept that by going outside you are part of the problem.

lindylou Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Had enough now. I started this thread about the
> people sitting on the benches outside the
> Palmerston on Lordship Lane. Once again, I had to
> go to Lloyds pharmacy on North Ross Road to
> collect a prescription. 3.20om, every bench
> outside the pub was taken up by luvvies with their
> takeaway coffees, 3 or 4 at each table, enjoying
> the sun. Not at all bothered. Well Palmerston pub,
> your benches might be fixed to the ground but
> there's no excuse. Enjoy your fine. Reporting you.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by seenbeen May 02, 09:03PM

Yeslovewhatcanigetu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Weve been failed by a government bathing in the
> glow of British exceptionalism and not enacting
> sensible measures at the appropriate time. Weve
> suffered from underfunding essential services, not
> providing appropriate PPE and leaving care homes
> out to dry as the residents are old and therefore
> not seen as a priority. This has got very little
> to do with people jogging, walking, sitting in
> parks enjoying a bit of sunshine or buying ice
> creams and respecting distancing measures as they
> do it.
>
> edcam Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There are no soft options. This country is
> > failing badly. In no small part due to the
> lack
> > of observation of the rules. This mentality of
> > "being kind" about it and "what's the problem
> if
> > people are distancing" is one of the reasons we
> > have one of the worst death rates in Europe.
> It's
> > not OK to go out unless you are exercising or
> > shopping and even then you need to be careful.
> > Why is your exceptionalism more important than
> > anything else? Go to the park but don't sit
> > around in it.
> >
> > binkylilyput Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The point being that those with available
> > outside
> > > space need to be kinder and stop finger
> > pointing
> > > at those who choose to sit down in a park
> within
> > a
> > > safe distance from others for a little bit.
> > >
> > > Not having outside space available (which the
> > vast
> > > majority of East Dulwichers do) during this
> > time
> > > is really harsh.
> > >
> > > As with most things, this lockdown is hitting
> > the
> > > socially disadvantaged hardest.......and the
> > > judgements and scandal from people who have
> no
> > > need to sit in a park is really shameful.

Care homes are either privately owned and run- (I know 2 people who worked in those and they were woefully deprived by their money-grabbing owners). And other forms of care, both care homes and care givers in peoples' own homes, are run by local councils under the adult social care departments of your local council. Therefore the PPE should have been bought in by themselves - the government provided extra for local councils
[www.local.gov.uk]

However the PPE was a GLOBAL crisis as is the Covid 19....it is an unprecedented disaster that should have been averted after the SARS outbreak in 2002.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by PnB May 02, 09:43PM

lindylou Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Had enough now. I started this thread about the
> people sitting on the benches outside the
> Palmerston on Lordship Lane. Once again, I had to
> go to Lloyds pharmacy on North Ross Road to
> collect a prescription. 3.20om, every bench
> outside the pub was taken up by luvvies with their
> takeaway coffees, 3 or 4 at each table, enjoying
> the sun. Not at all bothered. Well Palmerston pub,
> your benches might be fixed to the ground but
> there's no excuse. Enjoy your fine. Reporting you.


Who are you reporting a currently defunct business to? What fine do you reckon they'll get?

Earlier today i was quite shocked to see a fellow human being leaning against a railing. I've had enough and i am calling the council to have the railing removed and whoever put it there hopefully fined.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by alice May 02, 09:50PM

Ll good post. Providing seating encourages and legitimises people breaking our current regulations.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by jimlad48 May 02, 10:08PM

alice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ll good post. Providing seating encourages and
> legitimises people breaking our current
> regulations.


They're not regulations, they are advice and guidance. An important distinction.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by dbboy May 02, 10:51PM

When you eventually catch CV 19, can't breath and subsequently die, don't moan, because you didn't follow the guidance.

The guidance wasn't published for fun, theirs a very good reason why it's been put out.

AS of TODAY, 28,000+ people in the UK have died from covid 19.

Stay at Home, Protect the NHS and Save Lives. It's really not difficult to understand.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was may 02, 11:04pm by dbboy.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by IlonaM May 02, 10:53PM

jimlad48 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> They're not regulations, they are advice and
> guidance. An important distinction.


I'm afraid jimlad48 they are enforceable public health regulations. Advice and guidance would not be enough in a national emergency and the police would not be able to enforce them, issue fines or take you to court if your trangression were serious enough. You can read about them here: [www.gov.uk] and [www.met.police.uk].

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by fishbiscuits May 02, 11:03PM

So which is it? The government brought in restrictions too late, and haven't been strict enough? Or picnics, games of football, and going out for coffee on Lordship Lane are all fine?

Can't have it both ways.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by jimlad48 May 02, 11:37PM

And tens of thousands have died from other illness too. Its a nasty bug, but lets be clear, the way cause of death is recorded in the UK is where COVID-19 may have played a part, not the sole reason for death. Flu kills tens of thousands every year, but we don't react with panic.

My honest view is that we've significantly over reacted here relative to the actual threat, which seems to be of risk to certain groups. I don't think the price we've paid of utterly destroying our economy is worth it, given many of those who died would quite possibly have passed on this year anyway.

I'm sorry to sound harsh but I just think the response is too much, for too long and I think its not worth paying.

dbboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When you eventually catch CV 19, can't breath and
> subsequently die, don't moan, because you didn't
> follow the guidance.
>
> The guidance wasn't published for fun, theirs a
> very good reason why it's been put out.
>
> AS of TODAY, 28,000+ people in the UK have died
> from covid 19.
>
> Stay at Home, Protect the NHS and Save Lives. It's
> really not difficult to understand.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by Blah Blah May 03, 03:07AM

But you are wrong Jimlad. Pandemics left to spread freely also destroy economies, because so many people get ill, they contract very quickly.

This is not Influenza (for which we have vaccines btw). This has a higher infection and death rate. We have already surpassed the annual death rate caused by the flu virus in just six weeks. The annual average for flu related deaths is around the 12,000 range and that is across 12 months.

Covid is not simply a nasty bug. It is a very infectious SARS virus. It IS the cause of death because it attacks the ACE2 receptors in human cells which is what allows pneumonia to take hold, or for cytokine storms to cause organ failure. I take it you are not a doctor Jimlad, or medically trained. If you were, you would not be trying to compare this virus to flu in the way your post seems to seek to do.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by lindylou May 03, 07:24AM

jimlad48 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well you're a miserable person. Perhaps you should
> stay indoors and accept that if people are
> following guidelines, or trying to, there isn't
> that much of an issue.
>
> Sorry, but if you're going to moan about people
> being outside, you need to accept that by going
> outside you are part of the problem.
>
> lindylou Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Had enough now. I started this thread about the
> > people sitting on the benches outside the
> > Palmerston on Lordship Lane. Once again, I had
> to
> > go to Lloyds pharmacy on North Ross Road to
> > collect a prescription. 3.20om, every bench
> > outside the pub was taken up by luvvies with
> their
> > takeaway coffees, 3 or 4 at each table,
> enjoying
> > the sun. Not at all bothered. Well Palmerston
> pub,
> > your benches might be fixed to the ground but
> > there's no excuse. Enjoy your fine. Reporting
> you.


I already said...the reason I was out was to collect a prescription from the pharmacy.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by jimlad48 May 03, 08:26AM

I've spoken to enough doctors I know socially and professionally to hear that many feel the threat is not as bad as some people make it out to be. Its hitting people who are either on their way out anyway, or its hitting people who are made worse by very poor lifestyle choices.

I'm sorry, I know its a nasty illness, but lets be clear, its mainly hitting people who are already at risk of infection anyway due to underlying conditions. Haven't you noticed how many of the death figures contain thewords 'all but X had underlying health conditions' -thats the thing, it was a factor, it was not the sole factor.

I genuinely think we're overreacting here and my worry is the medium term ability to pay for an NHS to cope for future outbreaks is at risk. The sooner we relax the restrictions the better, and get on with our lives.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by JohnL May 03, 08:31AM

jimlad48 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And tens of thousands have died from other illness
> too. Its a nasty bug, but lets be clear, the way
> cause of death is recorded in the UK is where
> COVID-19 may have played a part, not the sole
> reason for death. Flu kills tens of thousands
> every year, but we don't react with panic.
>
> My honest view is that we've significantly over
> reacted here relative to the actual threat, which
> seems to be of risk to certain groups. I don't
> think the price we've paid of utterly destroying
> our economy is worth it, given many of those who
> died would quite possibly have passed on this year
> anyway.
>
> I'm sorry to sound harsh but I just think the
> response is too much, for too long and I think its
> not worth paying.
>
> dbboy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When you eventually catch CV 19, can't breath
> and
> > subsequently die, don't moan, because you
> didn't
> > follow the guidance.
> >
> > The guidance wasn't published for fun, theirs a
> > very good reason why it's been put out.
> >
> > AS of TODAY, 28,000+ people in the UK have died
> > from covid 19.
> >
> > Stay at Home, Protect the NHS and Save Lives.
> It's
> > really not difficult to understand.


we don't yet know what impact this bug has on people long term - what if it reduced everybodes life expectancy by 5 years due to organ damage - would that be acceptable. or 10 or 20 ? wheres the line. or just everybody over 40 has a reduced life expectancy of 5 years.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by jimlad48 May 03, 08:48AM

I think we are overreacting. There arew plenty of bad bugs out there, and in time we will agree a death rate that is acceptable including this one. The harm it is doing is to our economy and community and the sooner we stop hiding away and going back to work, the more likely it is we will survive.

I absolutely agree vulnerable people should shield, as they should for any nasty bug/virus - but this is getting silly now.

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by JohnL May 03, 09:07AM

jimlad48 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we are overreacting. There arew plenty of
> bad bugs out there, and in time we will agree a
> death rate that is acceptable including this one.
> The harm it is doing is to our economy and
> community and the sooner we stop hiding away and
> going back to work, the more likely it is we will
> survive.
>
> I absolutely agree vulnerable people should
> shield, as they should for any nasty bug/virus -
> but this is getting silly now.

I see your point but this isn't variant of flu and there's a lot we still don't know about it.

we are quite lucky in UK as we can see what happens in other countries as we leave 'lockdown'

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by Cyclemonkey May 03, 09:08AM

I don't see how it is the Palmerstons fault people are sitting on fixed benches outside their closed pub. What exactly have you reported them for? Owning outdoor furniture?

messageRe: Ignoring lockdown in ED
Posted by JohnL May 03, 09:33AM

Cyclemonkey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see how it is the Palmerstons fault people
> are sitting on fixed benches outside their closed
> pub. What exactly have you reported them for?
> Owning outdoor furniture?


I assume the police would turn up with a loud speaker and move people on rather than do anything with the owners.

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