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messageMake North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Jakido May 15, 11:44AM

Given weíll be socially distancing for some time, i wonder whether the council could turn north cross road into a full time market place with outdoor seating.

Priority for pitches could be given to lordship lane businesses and charities, building on the approach used for the Christmas Cracker event.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by ed26 May 15, 12:26PM

This would cause a lot of headaches for residents of North Cross Road and surrounding areas. It would mean that NCR would be closed. The only other through-road access into the area is Crystal Palace Road, but that's no right turn from East Dulwich Road. So, to get to The Actress end of NCR from Lordship Lane, it would mean either doing a U-Turn in the garage / Tescos, or taking a rat run through the back streets (Crawthew Grove, etc).

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by nxjen May 15, 01:31PM

I donít see how social distancing could work with stalls set up next to each other. As people return to work, there will be fewer potential visitors to the market during the week. There is only sufficient footfall to make the market viable in a Saturday, in the past I have seen many hopeful stalls start trading on a Friday and sadly only last a few weeks as the customers just donít visit.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Jakido May 15, 02:04PM

Ok , make it three days a week. It is after all already closed every Saturday. Iím sure those residents who drivE cars could cope.

On socially distancing. If the full road is closed then thereís a lot more space for socially distancing than on for example lordship lane.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Jakido May 15, 02:08PM

And on footfall, I would imagine that if some Of the lordship lane cafes / restaurants operated Street stalls, with picnic tables, that might increase numbers of people visiting.

I guess Iím trying to think of ideas to save the local businesses. Itís not clear how many will survive without some trialling new ideas.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Nigello May 15, 03:34PM

I think any undertaking that attracts people to the same place wonít get the green light right now. Takeaway and bulk selling for freezing may be tried to ramp up business for some food producers. Itís hard so good luck to all.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by James Barber May 15, 04:05PM

North Cross Road market had a 6 day a week legal arrangement but market stalls were only interested in attending on Saturdays. The market has a number of very antisocial practices and council policies - first come for best pitches so people noisily setting up at 5am or earlier.

Part of installing the electric sockets via monies Councillors allocated (it cost a lot) was to invest in the market but also to change the practices to dramatically reduce that anti scoria design. This included the market becoming Saturday only legally to coincide with the practices. This meant pitches on Fridays that were never used didn't see parking ticket being issued to residents for example.

I'k sure we would all want residents to agree and support any such changes and that a genuine demand exists.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Jakido May 15, 04:11PM

thanks james. Yes, i suppose my point is that the context has changed quite a bit - i.e. all cafes, pubs, restaurants are takeaway only at the moment. Opening the market up with socially distanced outdoor seating might offer a route to survival for some.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Sally Eva May 15, 06:20PM

Southwark is looking for comments and suggestions on protecting pedestrians and restraining pollution from cars after lockdown.
Make your suggestion here:
[www.southwark.gov.uk]

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by millie7uk May 16, 11:52AM

And what about the people who live in that and the adjoining roads, the noise, litter and traffic and lack of parking is a serious problem

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by seenbeen May 16, 02:02PM

millie7uk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And what about the people who live in that and the
> adjoining roads, the noise, litter and traffic and
> lack of parking is a serious problem

Yes- I always walk there around the back streets and the number of cars that pass me 2 or 3 times looking for a parking spot is ridiculous...so you can add air pollution to your list

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Jakido May 17, 10:08AM

The Immediate roads are much better on a Saturday when the market is on, much easier to find somewhere to park and less traffic as no through roads discourage people from driving round.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Jakido May 17, 10:09AM

[www.telegraph.co.uk] Would seem the govt is going to encourage outdoor dining.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by DulwichFox May 17, 10:28AM

Jakido Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.telegraph.co.uk]
> -fresco-pubs-dining-save-high-street/ Would seem
> the govt is going to encourage outdoor dining.

And in the Winter? Who is going to want to eat outside then ?

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by DulwichFox May 17, 10:31AM

Jakido Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Immediate roads are much better on a Saturday
> when the market is on, much easier to find
> somewhere to park and less traffic as no through
> roads discourage people from driving round.

You obviously know nothing about what the area was like before the Market. !!

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by KidKruger May 17, 11:36AM

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You obviously know nothing about what the area was
> like before the Market. !!


What was it like Foxy, if you know better than Jakido please share ?!

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by PnB May 17, 12:45PM

I live very close to where the market takes place but i have never been a big fan of it. Its hard to get through the road om a saturday as its full of people simply delighted by £9 portions of hog roast. There isnt really anything decent there to see or do, and at the Christmas Cracker thingy i actually had to call the council and complain about the noise (i had been up all night getting mashed and wanted to sleep until the afternoon). They might as well just can the thing IMO, anything there you can just buy in a shop.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by KidKruger May 17, 12:58PM

fair point PnB, perhaps we should in fact just shut all shops because, after all, most of what they sell is available anyway in supermarkets !

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by DulwichFox May 17, 02:26PM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DulwichFox Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You obviously know nothing about what the area
> was
> > like before the Market. !!
>
>
> What was it like Foxy, if you know better than
> Jakido please share ?!


What was it like.. ?? How far back do want to go ??

2010..? 2000..? 1990..? 1980.. ?

I moved from Peckham to East Dulwich in 1980.. Top of Dunstans Rd. Opposite Dawson Heights.

North Cross Rd was virtually deserted at that time, although there was a Curry House Golden Tandoori
run by a guy called Farooq which was one of the very few places open on a Sunday afternoon.
His mother used to serve on tables..

Not much open on Lordship Lane at the time.

No Parking problems anywhere in East Dulwich / Dulwich.

In the evening walking down Lordship Lane after 9.00 pm you would not see many people about.
and you would not see many cars..

I moved down to Ulverscroft in 1996. I drove a Renault Master Low loader which I used for my Business
on Uplands road. A large van which I had no problems finding a parking space on my road or outside my shop.(1993)
In those days there were no parking problems in the area. You could easily park in Dulwich Park and Drive through the Park.

I changed from the van to a small Ford Escort in 1997 and parking was still relatively easy although
as Lordship Lane developed parking became harder with all the 'Tourists' to local Pubs and Restaurants increased.

BUT then the Market opened. Parking became impossible.
Having to park 2 streets away and carry shopping in 2-3 trips.

Then when a space become available racing round to recover my car only to find the space gone when I returned.
Then driving round an round till another space become available. Loads of other cars .. vans doing the same.

The market has done so much damage to the area with increase in traffic. We do not need this 7 days a week.

Nightmare.

Foxy

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Penguin68 May 17, 02:27PM

James Barber has already made the point that traders didn't want/ wouldn't have paid for space in, a 7 day market. Southwark did 'build a market' and nobody came (except on Saturdays). A market requires customers, with needs, and an ability to pay, coming together with suppliers who have goods and services to meet those needs, which can be supplied profitably. As it turned out, this was only true of Saturdays - and not even then to the extent that had been hoped for. A socially distanced Saturday market will be a joy to behold.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by PnB May 17, 02:52PM

Penguin68 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> James Barber has already made the point that
> traders didn't want/ wouldn't have paid for space
> in, a 7 day market. Southwark did 'build a market'
> and nobody came (except on Saturdays). A market
> requires customers, with needs, and an ability to
> pay, coming together with suppliers who have goods
> and services to meet those needs, which can be
> supplied profitably. As it turned out, this was
> only true of Saturdays - and not even then to the
> extent that had been hoped for. A socially
> distanced Saturday market will be a joy to behold.


There is a food market in Elephant and Castle which i believe is very popular all the time. It is ludicrously priced, a meal on a paper plate will cost at least £12 and a pint £6.50, which sticks in the throat somewhat when mere yards away thousands of folk are living in poverty.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Sue May 17, 06:05PM

I also live in Ulverscroft Road, just round the corner from the market.

I moved there nearly thirty years ago.

Obviously there have been many changes in the road/area over that time, including more large cars and more difficulty in parking due to skips, builders' vehicles etc.

However I reckon I've only had to park in another road half a dozen times. I can almost always find a parking space in the road.

For me, the benefits of having the market far outweigh the disadvantages, plus presumably it also brings additional business to the local shops in North Cross Road and Lordship Lane.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by rollflick May 17, 06:30PM

Unless a vaccine miraculously appears, we are going to have distancing rules for at least a year. That means more home working etc. so people around during the week. Any argument about what people/traders did/didn't want years in the past ignores the fact that reality is rather different now and for the near future. A lot of people commenting seem stuck in the past.

Good on jakido for coming up with a brilliant idea to help people and local businesses in these difficult times. 3 days a week would be great with some outside tables. We need to experiment to find out what works.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Cora May 17, 06:34PM

It would great to have some stalls back....(I guess I am thinking particularly of the egg lady!)

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by KidKruger May 17, 06:37PM

Agreed. We need to move forward safely, adapting to the new times as best we can.
Complaining without solutions may not help at all and, as Liam said, "the past means nothing".

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by bels123 May 18, 12:55PM

Agreed. Itís a great idea.

rollflick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Unless a vaccine miraculously appears, we are
> going to have distancing rules for at least a
> year. That means more home working etc. so people
> around during the week. Any argument about what
> people/traders did/didn't want years in the past
> ignores the fact that reality is rather different
> now and for the near future. A lot of people
> commenting seem stuck in the past.
>
> Good on jakido for coming up with a brilliant idea
> to help people and local businesses in these
> difficult times. 3 days a week would be great with
> some outside tables. We need to experiment to find
> out what works.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by goldilocks May 19, 02:21PM

This is a great idea. The previous Ďrulesí about low footfall in the week donít stand with hugely increased home working. More frequent markets but with a lower density of stalls could provide better social distancing. In addition, having variety in the market on different days would encourage more frequent trips

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by rachp May 19, 02:44PM

Cora Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would great to have some stalls back....(I
> guess I am thinking particularly of the egg lady!)

She delivers every Tuesday if you want her details..

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Pugwash May 19, 02:58PM

Having grown up in ED from the 1950s- NX Road had a small market during the week - only about 4 or 5 stalls - fruit and veg, haberdashery. fish stall on Fridays - cannot remember the others. It was considered a cheap place to get fruit and veg - as shops were much dearer.

messageRe: Make North Cross Road a 7 day a week Market
Posted by Penguin68 May 19, 03:02PM

This is a great idea. The previous Ďrulesí about low footfall in the week donít stand with hugely increased home working. More frequent markets but with a lower density of stalls could provide better social distancing. In addition, having variety in the market on different days would encourage more frequent trips

The 'rules' were one of economy. If there is sufficient custom/ demand, the market may be able to extend its opening times - but you cannot force suppliers to supply where they don't want to; where demand is insufficient. We may have a new normal where street markets are more compelling - although working from home may not be sufficient to drive demand.

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