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closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by alice September 13, 05:02PM

Of course itís different - the road is blocked. The self interest masquerading as pro-healthy streets is Transparent.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Charles Notice September 13, 05:30PM

"It absolutely was a rat run. I've been living on the southern side of Melbourne Grove since 2016 and it was used constantly as a way for people to bypass LL.

Often times people would speed by simply because they could. The difference in the amount of traffic on this end has been like day and night."

So like the poor residents in Camberwell Grove, they went to bed one night and the next morning like in Independence Day when they woke they found there instead of aliens there were cars all over the shop.

Where did all these cars come from they cried we must get the road closed. Think of house prices. They even wanted a toll gate like Dulwich Village.

You say you have been there since 2016 so you would have known that cars used this road to come from LL to EDG when you bought and did not appear overnight.

The closure is just a way to get a gated private community/road and inflate house price should you/others you find you might not have a job in the new future and have to sell.

If I were you I would do the same.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 13, 05:37pm by Charles Notice.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by EDguy89 September 13, 08:30PM

Charles Notice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "It absolutely was a rat run. I've been living on
> the southern side of Melbourne Grove since 2016
> and it was used constantly as a way for people to
> bypass LL.
>
> Often times people would speed by simply because
> they could. The difference in the amount of
> traffic on this end has been like day and night."
>
> So like the poor residents in Camberwell Grove,
> they went to bed one night and the next morning
> like in Independence Day when they woke they found
> there instead of aliens there were cars all over
> the shop.
>
> Where did all these cars come from they cried we
> must get the road closed. Think of house prices.
> They even wanted a toll gate like Dulwich Village.
>
>
> You say you have been there since 2016 so you
> would have known that cars used this road to come
> from LL to EDG when you bought and did not appear
> overnight.
>
> The closure is just a way to get a gated private
> community/road and inflate house price should
> you/others you find you might not have a job in
> the new future and have to sell.
>
> If I were you I would do the same.

Has it occurred to you that not everybody on Melbourne Grove owns their own place? Has it occurred to you that some people rent? Or that some people living on this road aren't somehow financially benefiting from this? Has it occurred to you that some people just live here?

Of course it hasn't! It hasn't because you seem to have some delusion that 100% of the populace on this road are somehow operating in the shadows, pulling strings, and influencing local government to help raise house prices. The reality is a lot less interesting than that. Here's the reality: I just rent here.

So please, make sure to tell me again what my personal situation is like. I'm sure it will fit your "us vs them" narrative just wonderfully.

However, here in reality, I find it difficult to discuss these changes from the perspective of someone who lives on the benefited roads because someone will be sure to make some ridiculous assumptions about house prices.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Rockets September 13, 08:59PM

I wonder if there are residents on the closed roads (any of them) who may like the quietness and change to their situation but do also harbour concerns about the impact the changes are having on roads and residents elsewhere.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by geh September 13, 09:04PM

I wonder if there are residents on the closed roads (any of them) who may like the quietness and change to their situation but do also harbour concerns about the impact the changes are having on their local retailers elsewhere?

because I do!

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by EDguy89 September 14, 07:57AM

Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if there are residents on the closed
> roads (any of them) who may like the quietness and
> change to their situation but do also harbour
> concerns about the impact the changes are having
> on roads and residents elsewhere.

Yeah I'd fall into this category.

My experience since 2016 is that my street, Melbourne Grove, had a very large amount of traffic regularly that just passed through. A lot of the time it was at higher speeds and with traffic aiming to go both north and south and the amount of times cars stood facing one another honking their horns until one backed up was pretty high. They installed speed humps at one point but they didn't achieve all that much. It was a mess. However, it was a mess that most people didn't see.

For the longest time it was completely irrelevant to me because it was just myself and my partner. I've got a kid now and the dangers of the road prior to the closure became really apparent to me.

Now we can walk along the road without having to be more vigilant than normal when crossing the street. So yeah the closure of the road has been really nice for us.

I get that local traffic has been displaced elsewhere, and in reading the other threads, I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been voiced repeatedly.

There isn't a solution that makes everyone happy and there will be people who get the short end of the stick. My opinion on the matter is that car usage needs to decrease dramatically. In 50 years we'll be looking at a wildly different world due to climate change and clinging to our cars isn't helping (for that matter we should also aim to decrease the amount of meat we consume regularly as the farming contributes greatly, but that's beside the point). Obviously there are minority groups that should be able to maintain use of their car. Even then, there should be real financial incentives to drop fossil fuel burning cars and move to electric. An increase of spending on infrastructure and investment in public transport would likely lead to a situation that's more amiable for most people.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by ED_moots September 14, 08:36AM

Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if there are residents on the closed
> roads (any of them) who may like the quietness and
> change to their situation but do also harbour
> concerns about the impact the changes are having
> on roads and residents elsewhere.

Yes, absolutely. We don't all support this scheme.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by ED_moots September 14, 08:37AM

geh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if there are residents on the closed
> roads (any of them) who may like the quietness and
> change to their situation but do also harbour
> concerns about the impact the changes are having
> on their local retailers elsewhere?
>
> because I do!

Yes, absolutely. We don't all support this scheme

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 14, 09:48AM

" some people just live here? Of course it hasn't! It hasn't because you seem to have some delusion that 100% of the populace on this road are somehow operating in the shadows, pulling strings, and influencing local government to help raise house prices"

The (Mel)Bourne (Grove) Supremacy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 14, 10:38am by Dogkennelhillbilly.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by eastdulwichhenry September 14, 10:06AM

Everyone glibly says traffic is being displaced elsewhere, but I'd like to see the evidence of this. My anecdotal experience is the Lordship Lane and East Dulwich Grove are not busier than before. They've always been very busy, and remain so, but there are still plenty of gaps in traffic too. Similarly, traffic through Dulwich Village was very congested in the first few days after the Calton Road closure but now seems back to something like normal. Presumably the council will be monitoring all this with empirical data so that informed rather than knee-jerk decisions can be made when the trial preiod ends.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Rockets September 14, 11:58AM

eastdulwichhenry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone glibly says traffic is being displaced
> elsewhere, but I'd like to see the evidence of
> this. My anecdotal experience is the Lordship Lane
> and East Dulwich Grove are not busier than before.
> They've always been very busy, and remain so, but
> there are still plenty of gaps in traffic too.
> Similarly, traffic through Dulwich Village was
> very congested in the first few days after the
> Calton Road closure but now seems back to
> something like normal. Presumably the council will
> be monitoring all this with empirical data so that
> informed rather than knee-jerk decisions can be
> made when the trial preiod ends.

Lordship Lane was nose-to-tail from outside Moxons to the Goose Green roundabout for the hour I sat having some food on the Lane on Saturday - it did eventually clear into the mid-afternoon but of all my many years being on the Lane on a Saturday I have never seen it like that).

Take a walk around the junction of Dulwich Village and EDG or outside the library at about 3pm and you will see for yourself the impact of the displacement.

The council has only just started monitoring. When the DV closures went in they only put monitoring in on the closed roads and not any of the surrounding roads (yeah....go figure) but they have now been forced to put monitoring in across the area more broadly but, of course, they will have nothing to measure it against as the monitoring only went in after the closures were put in place.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by rahrahrah September 14, 11:59AM

If you go outside your house you can see how much space is given over to cars. There is tons of metal sitting on every single street, most of it rarely moving.
If we want to make it easier for people to use alternatives, then we need to create safe, quiet and clean routes for cycling and walking (and invest in public transport).
Most people are terrified to cycle on roads often dominated by bigger and bigger (pseudo military) vehicles... Many regularly ignoring the speed limits. We have created a hostile environment for anyone wishing to take to two wheels. Is that really an constructive situation?
There is a role for cars clearly, but the amount of space they are allocated is completely out of proportion and it crowds out other types of transport.
The entitlement many feel when it comes to their cars needs to be challenged for what it is. The reaction to some really mild attempts to create space for (mainly) pedestrians, just highlights how indulged the car lobby have become imo.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by first mate September 14, 12:01PM

Rahrahrah,

I think your emphasis is wrong. The priority should be to improve and invest in public transport. Cycling too but emphasis should be on the first.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Rockets September 14, 12:16PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you go outside your house you can see how much
> space is given over to cars. There is tons of
> metal sitting on every single street, most of it
> rarely moving.
> If we want to make it easier for people to use
> alternatives, then we need to create safe, quiet
> and clean routes for cycling and walking (and
> invest in public transport).
> Most people are terrified to cycle on roads often
> dominated by bigger and bigger (pseudo military)
> vehicles... Many regularly ignoring the speed
> limits. We have created a hostile environment for
> anyone wishing to take to two wheels. Is that
> really an constructive situation?
> There is a role for cars clearly, but the amount
> of space they are allocated is completely out of
> proportion and it crowds out other types of
> transport.
> The entitlement many feel when it comes to their
> cars needs to be challenged for what it is. The
> reaction to some really mild attempts to create
> space for (mainly) pedestrians, just highlights
> how indulged the car lobby have become imo.

Mild attempts to create space....oh dear....yes it is lovely walking or cycling down Court Lane - I am often the only person or cyclist doing so but the moment I turn onto Dulwich Village the hell returns with interest.

All sense seems to have been lost in this debate by the pro-cycle lobby. All many of us are saying is that the route the council is taking to try and deal with these issues is a very blunt, ineffective instrument that will cause far more issues than they resolve - issues that will negatively impact all road users.

The cancel-car culture that is being peddled by the pro-lobby is just not realistic. There is a reason so many people choose to own and use cars - it's because the other forms of transport fail to deliver what they need. And closing a load of roads in Dulwich will not resolve those issues it makes them worse and actually more pronounced.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by rahrahrah September 14, 12:22PM

first mate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rahrahrah,
>
> I think your emphasis is wrong. The priority
> should be to improve and invest in public
> transport. Cycling too but emphasis should be on
> the first.

I agree with this. I would like to see a lot more investment in public transport, but that is probably a longer term project.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by rahrahrah September 14, 12:23PM

@Rockets - 'cancel car culture'? 😂

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Pugwash September 14, 12:52PM

With more adults and children cycling due to road closures etc - has anyone got any idea if they have been involved in accidents and 'near misses'?

I ask as I have noticed the following:- more adults with young children (under 11) cycling on main roads i.e Barry Road and Lordship Lane - adults leading with children following - frequently with large gaps between them. I would have thought it better for adults to be behind children.

More pavement cycling of both adults and children.

More running through red lights - adults and children.

Cutting up of pedestrians on crossings and pavements.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by first mate September 14, 01:04PM

Quite. Yesterday, young Dad cycling on narrow pavement down LL, one child clinging onto his bike with him, the other on their own bike with him directing. Doesnít feel quite right.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Rockets September 14, 01:32PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @Rockets - 'cancel car culture'? 😂


Did you like that one - I thought it was a good one - it came to me in a moment on inspiration.....winking smiley?

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Abe_froeman September 14, 01:32PM

Would also add that when ever I cycle it's the other cyclists who are the most terrifying road users. I've had far more near misses with lycra clad crazies riding right on my wheel to get a tow, or trying to overtake at a pinch point, or going through a red light at high speed, than I've had with pseudo military vehicles, or even just civilian cars or lorries.

A couple of times I've even had other cyclists lean on me as I've rounded a bend.

Some of them are awful road hogs and I really think it's time for mandatory licences for cyclists in London now.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by rahrahrah September 14, 02:07PM

@Abe - seriously? You think other cyclists represent a bigger danger than motor vehicles when you're on a bike?

I agree that there are some absolute lycra tw*ts, but they're the same idiots who drive their audis at speed the rest of the time - in other words idiots are gonna idiot whatever they're doing. But I can't honestly believe that you feel they're more dangerous on a bike ,than in a car.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Abe_froeman September 14, 02:19PM

Yes that is my experience. The most dangerous behaviour I've seen on the roads on my bicycle has been from other cyclists

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by rahrahrah September 14, 02:42PM

If you honesty think that an idiot on a bike is more dangerous than an idiot in a car... well I'm not sure all the evidence in the world is going to dissuade you.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Siduhe September 14, 02:45PM

I've got to say my experience is similar to Abe's. I wouldn't say other cyclists are the "biggest" danger (metal box hitting me at speed is plainly a bigger danger than a lycra'd up person on two wheels) but they are certainly the most "frequent" cause of me having to change direction, slam on brakes and/or receive abuse as a cyclist.

I'm a driver, pedestrian and commuting cyclist, so I don't really have any skin in the cyclists v cars debate. I use the car rarely these days (for big shopping loads only) and am generally in favour of measures to get those of us that can, out of cars and walking or cycling. TBF, I'm also comparatively slow cyclist on a not very smart bike who stops at every red light, so I recognise that other cyclists are going to want to go around me and I'm fine with that. But generally I find most car drivers are fine so long as you regularly look behind you (so they know you know they are there) before you move out into the road or turn right. And if you don't go shooting down their inside but wait behind or go around on the outside in stationary traffic, again most drivers (including vans, trucks and buses) are fine giving you space in my experience as long as they can see you showing some basic awareness they are there.

I think it's great there's been a massive uptick in cycling but some of the behaviour I see really scares me - and it's not just the lycra'd up brigade (although they are the most likely to give you abuse when you stop at a red light they would rather have gone straight through and vaguely inconvenienced them into changing direction). The majority of people don't look behind them before they move out into traffic, there is a lot of swapping lanes without looking and shooting up inside traffic and very little attempt to signal before turning and, my god, the number of people wearing headphones and cycling in traffic is genuinely astonishing.

And to be clear, there are loads of sensible, aware cyclists too, but I think the standard of behaviour has generally deteriorated since more people started cycling and it drives the overall cyclist behaviour down. As soon as one person jumps a light, others follow and it normalises it etc. I see that every day on my commute into work (a lot of which is on segregated cycle lanes and/or have "bike first" traffic lights where there's no excuse for any cyclist running the red light). A few people will pull up on red but as soon as one person goes shooting through (whether it's a pedestrian phase or a cars coming the other way phase) everyone else follows.

One of the things it's made me think about is that those sort of behaviours aren't too risky when you're on a cycle path or quietway but get really dangerous when you're cycling in proper traffic. I'm coming to the view that no-one should cycle in full London traffic without having some kind of training - it was the best thing I did when I started cycling.

Edit to add to rahrahrah's point - yes - an idiot is an idiot whether they are driving a car or cycling (and even may be the same people I would guess) but generally, my experience is that standard of driver behaviour towards cyclists in our area is better than the behaviour of a lot of those cyclists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 14, 02:47pm by Siduhe.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 14, 03:04PM

first mate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rahrahrah,
>
> I think your emphasis is wrong. The priority
> should be to improve and invest in public
> transport. Cycling too but emphasis should be on
> the first

There's no material improvement in bus transport possible without removing other vehicles from the road - but look at the moaning about making Lordship Lane bus lanes 24 hours. Even Bakerloo line construction will take a decade - the tube isn't coming to Dulwich any time soon.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Rockets September 14, 03:33PM

Siduhe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've got to say my experience is similar to Abe's.
> I wouldn't say other cyclists are the "biggest"
> danger (metal box hitting me at speed is plainly a
> bigger danger than a lycra'd up person on two
> wheels) but they are certainly the most "frequent"
> cause of me having to change direction, slam on
> brakes and/or receive abuse as a cyclist.
>
> I'm a driver, pedestrian and commuting cyclist, so
> I don't really have any skin in the cyclists v
> cars debate. I use the car rarely these days (for
> big shopping loads only) and am generally in
> favour of measures to get those of us that can,
> out of cars and walking or cycling. TBF, I'm also
> comparatively slow cyclist on a not very smart
> bike who stops at every red light, so I recognise
> that other cyclists are going to want to go around
> me and I'm fine with that. But generally I find
> most car drivers are fine so long as you regularly
> look behind you (so they know you know they are
> there) before you move out into the road or turn
> right. And if you don't go shooting down their
> inside but wait behind or go around on the outside
> in stationary traffic, again most drivers
> (including vans, trucks and buses) are fine giving
> you space in my experience as long as they can see
> you showing some basic awareness they are there.
>
> I think it's great there's been a massive uptick
> in cycling but some of the behaviour I see really
> scares me - and it's not just the lycra'd up
> brigade (although they are the most likely to give
> you abuse when you stop at a red light they would
> rather have gone straight through and vaguely
> inconvenienced them into changing direction). The
> majority of people don't look behind them before
> they move out into traffic, there is a lot of
> swapping lanes without looking and shooting up
> inside traffic and very little attempt to signal
> before turning and, my god, the number of people
> wearing headphones and cycling in traffic is
> genuinely astonishing.
>
> And to be clear, there are loads of sensible,
> aware cyclists too, but I think the standard of
> behaviour has generally deteriorated since more
> people started cycling and it drives the overall
> cyclist behaviour down. As soon as one person
> jumps a light, others follow and it normalises it
> etc. I see that every day on my commute into work
> (a lot of which is on segregated cycle lanes
> and/or have "bike first" traffic lights where
> there's no excuse for any cyclist running the red
> light). A few people will pull up on red but as
> soon as one person goes shooting through (whether
> it's a pedestrian phase or a cars coming the other
> way phase) everyone else follows.
>
> One of the things it's made me think about is that
> those sort of behaviours aren't too risky when
> you're on a cycle path or quietway but get really
> dangerous when you're cycling in proper traffic.
> I'm coming to the view that no-one should cycle in
> full London traffic without having some kind of
> training - it was the best thing I did when I
> started cycling.
>
> Edit to add to rahrahrah's point - yes - an idiot
> is an idiot whether they are driving a car or
> cycling (and even may be the same people I would
> guess) but generally, my experience is that
> standard of driver behaviour towards cyclists in
> our area is better than the behaviour of a lot of
> those cyclists.


I agree. Cyclists are not necessarily dangerous to other road users but many are dangerous to themselves. I used to cycle to work from Dulwich to Hammersmith and some of the stunts pulled by other cyclists used to amaze me. As a car driver I respect everyone else's right to use the roads and am mindful of ensuring everyone has space. But sometimes cyclists seem to think they are the only road users and somehow have more priority than others. A few weeks ago two cyclists wearing no helmets (not Mamils but 20 millennials) were riding two abreast on the A205 in front of Alleynian's Rugby club, seemingly taking great pleasure in slowing all traffic to crawling pace. I understand there is a mindset of we want to use the road but really...it's why cyclists get such a bad rap.

The other danger in London are the Boris bikes - it seems by default that people who use these have zero clue how to either 1) ride a bike 2) any idea how to remain safe on them 3) have zero road sense.

Everyone who cycles should be made to do some sort of cycling proficiency (as we did at school) as they are a law unto themselves sometimes.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Slocky September 14, 04:44PM

Abe_froeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would also add that when ever I cycle it's the
> other cyclists who are the most terrifying road
> users. I've had far more near misses with lycra
> clad crazies riding right on my wheel to get a
> tow, or trying to overtake at a pinch point, or
> going through a red light at high speed, than
> I've had with pseudo military vehicles, or even
> just civilian cars or lorries.
>
> A couple of times I've even had other cyclists
> lean on me as I've rounded a bend.
>
> Some of them are awful road hogs and I really
> think it's time for mandatory licences for
> cyclists in London now.


On the other hand I've been cycling in London for over 25 years and I cannot remember another cyclist ever representing the slightest danger to me. To themselves, yes, but frankly I'm less concerned about that. Drivers on the other hand are more or less a constant threat and I see unbelievably selfish, reckless and dangerous behaviour from drivers almost every time I ride.
Some of them are awful road hogs and should be made to do some sort of cycle awareness test as they are a law unto themselves.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly September 14, 05:23PM

> A couple of times I've even had other cyclists
> lean on me as I've rounded a bend.

This makes perfect sense and definitely happened.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by redpost September 14, 05:39PM

perhaps you should do some highway profiency and read the highway code, there is nothing wrong with riding two abreast

daily-mail comments like yours (riding two abreast, cylists should pay road tax etc) only serve to give car drivers a bad rap and illustrate your ignorance of the law



Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Siduhe Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I agree. Cyclists are not necessarily dangerous to
> other road users but many are dangerous to
> themselves. I used to cycle to work from Dulwich
> to Hammersmith and some of the stunts pulled by
> other cyclists used to amaze me. As a car driver I
> respect everyone else's right to use the roads and
> am mindful of ensuring everyone has space. But
> sometimes cyclists seem to think they are the only
> road users and somehow have more priority than
> others. A few weeks ago two cyclists wearing no
> helmets (not Mamils but 20 millennials) were
> riding two abreast on the A205 in front of
> Alleynian's Rugby club, seemingly taking great
> pleasure in slowing all traffic to crawling pace.
> I understand there is a mindset of we want to use
> the road but really...it's why cyclists get such a
> bad rap.
>
> The other danger in London are the Boris bikes -
> it seems by default that people who use these have
> zero clue how to either 1) ride a bike 2) any idea
> how to remain safe on them 3) have zero road
> sense.
>
> Everyone who cycles should be made to do some sort
> of cycling proficiency (as we did at school) as
> they are a law unto themselves sometimes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 14, 05:41pm by redpost.

closed threadRe: Melbourne grove shopkeeper set-up petition against road closures
Posted by Rockets September 14, 06:11PM

redpost Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> perhaps you should do some highway profiency and
> read the highway code, there is nothing wrong with
> riding two abreast
>
> daily-mail comments like yours (riding two
> abreast, cylists should pay road tax etc) only
> serve to give car drivers a bad rap and illustrate
> your ignorance of the law
>
>
>
> Rockets Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Siduhe Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> >
> > I agree. Cyclists are not necessarily dangerous
> to
> > other road users but many are dangerous to
> > themselves. I used to cycle to work from
> Dulwich
> > to Hammersmith and some of the stunts pulled by
> > other cyclists used to amaze me. As a car driver
> I
> > respect everyone else's right to use the roads
> and
> > am mindful of ensuring everyone has space. But
> > sometimes cyclists seem to think they are the
> only
> > road users and somehow have more priority than
> > others. A few weeks ago two cyclists wearing no
> > helmets (not Mamils but 20 millennials) were
> > riding two abreast on the A205 in front of
> > Alleynian's Rugby club, seemingly taking great
> > pleasure in slowing all traffic to crawling
> pace.
> > I understand there is a mindset of we want to
> use
> > the road but really...it's why cyclists get such
> a
> > bad rap.
> >
> > The other danger in London are the Boris bikes
> -
> > it seems by default that people who use these
> have
> > zero clue how to either 1) ride a bike 2) any
> idea
> > how to remain safe on them 3) have zero road
> > sense.
> >
> > Everyone who cycles should be made to do some
> sort
> > of cycling proficiency (as we did at school) as
> > they are a law unto themselves sometimes.

Ha ha, there we go - you illustrate my point beautifully...don't you think riding two abreast on the A205 might be somewhat, I dunno, inconsiderate to other roads users? Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

And a correction - I didn't say cyclists should pay road tax I said they should be encouraged to take cycling proficiency - you went all Daily Mail on me and put words into my mouth! winking smiley

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