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messageUrgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl September 06, 07:11PM

Closure of Melbourne Grove (and adjacent roads Derwent Grove, Elsie Road and Tintagel Crescent)

Hi all, I am one of the business owners on Melbourne Grove. At the end of last week Southwark Council closed access to Melbourne Grove from Grove Vale and all the other above mentioned roads, with absolutely NO consultation with the businesses, instantly cutting off passing trade, vehicular access and we have already seen customer footfall drop.

The aim appears to be to cut off all cars using these roads except residents, to prevent cars getting across to Dulwich Village this way and to get all traffic to use the more 'main roads' of Grove Vale and East Dulwich. I am parent of primary shcool age children in East Dulwich and totally agree with lowering pollution (especially around schools) but these plans will not actually achieve that, or will for a handful of residents but actually make it worse for the rest of us AND are cutting off trade to businesses that are just trying to get back on their feet post lockdown.

As an East Dulwich local you may have already noticed worse traffic and confusion on Grove Vale and East Dulwich Grove, heavier traffic equals more cars, idling engines, and more pollution on these roads, which include 2 schools, a public library and a new nursery on Grove Vale.

These roads may be considered to be more 'main roads' but are also heavily residential too. Why should the residents and businesses on these roads have to suffer greater pollution? There is social justice aspect to this, the people who tend to live on the busier roads tend to have less expensive housing, why should the value of your street or housing influence the amount of pollution you are exposed to?

Additionally there appears to have been no actual air pollution testing, traffic monitoring or modelling of redirected traffic loads on any of these roads prior to this plan. This 'experiment' could be for a minimum of 18 months. Small independent businesses can die in under 3 months without footfall, less given we are all on shaky ground post lockdown.

May I reiterate that there has been NO consultation of any kind, and this almost definitey will result in higher levels of pollution for the people who walk down, work and live on these roads. Do you walk to East Dulwich Station, down Grove Vale? You will be breathing in higher levels of pollution than you were last week.

This is an hugely ill conceived plan, with very little thought behind it, no nuance, no exploration of options, or any discussion with the local community.

Even if you are not interested in supporting local businesses, or worried about air pollution, you will find your journeys disrupted and taking longer, perhaps you are a local tradesman who needs to use these roads to get around and suddenly your journey times are tripled? Perhaps you just disagree with the unjust and sketchy methods the council are using to implement these road closures. Councils are dropping these all over London with NO consultation, using Co-vid as some kind of reasoning for not having to consider any local residents or businesses opinions, the impact on them, or your health.

If you support any of these issues please sign our online petition, and email your local councillors to express your views. You can also express your views on the specific road closures via an app I have copied in below.

Signing the petition is NOT saying 'I want rat runs between East Dulwich and Dulwich Village'
It is NOT saying 'I don't care about traffic or air pollution'

It IS saying, 'I want a proper discussion on how this is done'
It IS saying 'I want joined up thinking and solutions that work for most'
It IS saying, 'I want clearer air for all, not just a few'


Please show us your support if you can. There are peoples livelihoods and health at stake.
Please Follow us on twitter @GroveReopen and please retweet our tweets to any local journalists

Southwark Petition
[moderngov.southwark.gov.uk]


Petition
[chng.it] to sign the petition.

or copy and paste chng.it/k62TTfZD2G

You can also voice your views here
Streetspace East Dulwich : [eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is]

Email your councillors below;
If you are comfortable including your address so they can be assured yours are the views of genuine locals.

Catherine.rose@southwark.gov.uk - new - replaced Richard Livingstone
Radha.burgess@southwark.gov.uk - new role Deputy Cabinet for Low Traffic Southwark
James.mcash@southwark.gov.uk
Victoria.olisa@southwark.gov.uk
Charlie.smith@southwark.gov.uk
Rachel.gates@southwark.gov.uk

and
Highways@southwark.gov.uk
Community.engagement@southwark.gov.uk



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit was yesterday, 01:32pm by FairTgirl.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by tiddles September 07, 06:47AM

Signed. Thanks for the list of emails

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by SpringTime September 07, 06:57AM

Signed. Good luck.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl September 07, 09:55AM

Thank you

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Abe_froeman September 07, 12:04PM

Huge sympathies to you and I hope for your business that they knock this idiotic scheme on the head in very short order.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl September 07, 01:17PM

Thankyou very much. Please do sign our petition and register your opinion here

Streetspace East Dulwich : [eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 07, 01:21pm by FairTgirl.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by ed26 September 07, 01:57PM

I would rarely drive to a business on Melbourne Grove, but I wouldn't know about the businesses if I hadn't driven past them at some point. This is a real Ivory Tower decision that has been made without any thought of the knock-on effects on any other road restriction. One more road restirction around here and we'll all be stuck in an infinite loop, never able to get out of or back to our homes again.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Siduhe September 07, 02:30PM

It's also odd in the context of the very quick action that the Council has taken on Rye Lane to manage the adverse impact on the businesses there.

Having closed the Lane to all motorised traffic, it is now open early morning and in the evening to allow for deliveries (but not to buses, which is still having a massive knock on impact on those businesses). This change was implemented within two weeks of the closure being announced and yes it makes it much less pleasant to use as a pedestrian and cyclist at those times, but it's a reasonable balance of use for those businesses.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by TheCropolite September 07, 03:41PM

The funny thing with traffic is it often gets bad shortly after road/lane closures and then gets better as people realise that the journeys they previously used to take end up taking too long for them to be worth it and use quicker modes of transport.

Some reading material for you:
[www.google.co.uk]

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

[www.rapidtransition.org]

FYI the people who make these decisions are civil engineers, with many other checks and balances. Its not like some jobsworth who has nothing better to do thought letís close a few roads to wind everyone up. In regards to lack of consultation that is a shame, however had they done a consultation and explained to you that closing roads can actually reduce traffic and car use in the long run would you take that into consideration?

I would give it some time to see if it does work in reducing traffic in the coming weeks/months.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 07, 04:20PM

Please, please stop quoting from two decade old reports - it appears to be the go-to "proof" that this is going to magically fix everything.

It won't. And here is why and I am going to, somewhat hypocritically, quote from one of the two decade old reports you linked to to illustrate the point...winking smiley

It says:
In half of the case studies, there was a 11% reduction in number of vehicles across the whole area where roadspace for traffic was reduced, including the main roads.

11% - that scarily low magic number that makes you ponder what happens to the other 89% of traffic that used to use those routes......and the residents of Lordship Lane, East Dulwich Grove and anyone trying to use the A205 can probabyl give you a clue where it has gone and will continue to go....

And remember the trials like the oft heralded Waltham Forest were isolated, one area doing it which meant cars just went a different way. If you click through to the Waltham Forest report you will see that traffic increased massively on surrounding roads during the initial trial (up by as much as 158% in some cases) and then continued to register much greater traffic numbers after the full works were done.

Can the streets around Dulwich absorb huge increases in traffic flow because of the closures - has the council even modelled this?

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl September 07, 04:46PM

Traffic will understandably spike initially and it may drop back a bit from that intial spike, but there will continue to be higher levels of traffic on the surrounding roads as drivers have no other roads to choose.

People do not change driving habits of a lifetime overnight and perhaps some much bigger thinking is required around car use fullstop.

But these roads closures will not achieve these aims and will immediately make the air pollution on the roads running alongside schools, already illegally high around Goose Green school, even higher.

These road closures went in the day many Primary schools went back. So the first days the children were back at school since March, walking to school and using the playground, they were experiencing higher levels of pollution.

I don't know how long people think is an acceptable time to have illegally high levels of pollution around schools? Or how long businesses that had no say in this should suffer lower income and disruption? The owners of the businesess are all locals too, all using these roads as pedestrians, cyclists and drivers, and we have children at local schools.

With no consultation, no new studies, no new data, Southwark Council is doing a disservice to us all. With some real consultation new options, new ideas, innovation and compromise might be reached.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Penguin68 September 07, 05:34PM

It is worth saying (again) that levels of pollution generally in London have dropped dramatically over recent years, and would have dropped further with the extension of the ULEZ. This is based on better engineered petrol and diesel engines. Add to that the impact of hybrid and wholly electric vehicles and vehicle-created pollution (in normal times) is already reduced and will reduce much further. In the short term, however, forcing standing traffic into narrow suburban 'highways' - many not much wider than the roads closed - will add to local pollution.

Southwark wishes to force 50% of cars out of their borough (they're on record for that) - which is fine for the flat, well served by public transport northern end (the original Southwark) - which is also closer to the centre of London for those wanting to walk or cycle - but fairly dreadful for the hilly, poorly served by public transport Old Camberwell end - also much further from places in Town you might want to get to.

But does Tooley St. or their apparat care about those differences? - not when they can continue to soak us suckers for parking fees and so on.

And now we don't even get a say (hijacking Tory legislation)... - well we do get a say - but only one day every 3 years (or longer when they can extend the vote because of a pandemic).

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by TheCropolite September 07, 06:11PM

I would be gobsmacked if the council has not already produced models to determine the dynamics in traffic flow based on these road closures. There are also plenty of other examples of using similar mechanisms to reduce traffic flow however im sure you can find these on google (most of which are not decades old by the way).

The problem is what is the solution to reducing car usage in Southwark and across London? Higher vehicle taxes? Car lotteries? Only drivers with a certain license plate on certain days? More public transport? At some point people are going to have to realise driving your car everywhere is insane and is killing our children and the planet.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by TheCropolite September 07, 06:13PM

I do completely agree with your point that we do need consultation/open forums between residents and the council to get the best situation for everyone, however ultimately this boils down to one thing: too many cars on the road and no one wants to stop.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by spider69 September 07, 06:29PM

Too many people producing too many children who grow up wanting motor cars.

Stop people having children and their offspring will not want motorcars.

We can all go back to living as serfs under a feudal lord with our own little plot of land.

Problem solved. Apart from the Lord everyone equal.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by thebestnameshavegone September 07, 06:31PM

We need to have fewer car trips in London. Itís really simple. Youíre either pro low traffic stuff. Or youíre pro more car congestion.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by tiddles September 07, 06:45PM

Itís not that cut and dried I think.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 07, 06:48PM

thebestnameshavegone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We need to have fewer car trips in London. Itís
> really simple. Youíre either pro low traffic
> stuff. Or youíre pro more car congestion.


Well it looks like the pro-low traffic lobby are actually creating more congestion. Go figure.....

Are people not allowed to acknowledge that there needs to be fewer car journeys in London but not agree with the cack-handed way the council is going about it?

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Abe_froeman September 07, 06:56PM

We might as well go back to feudalism if everyone has to get around on foot, or if they're very wealthy by donkey, as the wind-back-progress tea party people of dulwich would have it.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl September 07, 07:03PM

Totally agree, we can all have the same aim and surely everyone agrees that less traffic and lower pollution is a positive and achieveable aim, but we need to do it in a more clever nuanced way than this. With consultation.


If Southwark have models and reports let's see them. Publish them, here and on their websites and in local papers for us all to peruse and see the data for ourselves.

And sorry to say TheCropolite, I don't think any thought HAS gone into this. They have already had to remove one of planters today end of Mellbourne Grove/Grove Vale as emergency vehicles can't get through. The 'thinking' did not even extend to emergency vehicles access.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was september 07, 07:07pm by FairTgirl.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by TheCropolite September 07, 07:33PM

I think youíre still not getting it. There are too many car trips in London, plain and simple. Data from TFL shows that 35% of car trips are under 2km.

[content.tfl.gov.uk]

Thatís under 30 mins walking or 10 mins by bike. In London most of those 1-2km trips will be quicker by bike or scooter etc. anyway. Some people may need a car for transporting goods, fine. But most (around 60%) of those trips are also being made by single individuals with no passengers.

This government is not going to introduce sweeping legislation to stem car use in London which Iím not going to get into but if everyone who was making those 1-2km trips by car stopped we would have 35% less cars on the road which is a huge number, which would also improve journey times for those making longer trips or who really need to.

You may think what theyíre doing is stupid and is not going to do anything, but I think in hindsight youíll hopefully realise that any measures to reduce car use are good, and this is one such measure.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by tiddles September 07, 07:35PM

Rockets - spot on

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl September 07, 07:53PM

TheCropolite, it may surprise you but as I run an eco shop I too want to limit car use. Personally I walk everywhere and barely use a car but a governing body needs to talk to the people affected before you put in bollards that are going to have an immediate impact on their livelihoods. And have some plans for the immediate increased pollution on the surrounding roads.

I don't think 'you'll be greatful in years to come' is an adequate argument for immediate dangerous spikes in pollution around schools and total disregard for the businesses that operate from those roads.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was september 07, 07:54pm by FairTgirl.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by TheCropolite September 07, 07:53PM

tiddles Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rockets - spot on


You do realise this is what happens when you close roads/lanes? There is an initial period where congestion increases before it decreases. Google it.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 07, 08:06PM

TheCropolite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tiddles Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Rockets - spot on
>
>
> You do realise this is what happens when you close
> roads/lanes? There is an initial period where
> congestion increases before it decreases. Google
> it.


11% overall...Google it.....oh you don't need to it was in the links you sent earlier....in fact, if you had bothered to read the document links you sent you will see that in Waltham Forest there was a significant net increase in traffic on the roads not closed and this did not go down.

Can the other roads in East Dulwich accommodate the remaining 89% of traffic? Dulwich Village has 7,000 car journeys per day through the Calton junction (the council's own numbers) - let's be very generous and say 1,000 of those journeys are then made by other means - are you sure the other roads that are not closed can accommodate another 6,000 car movements per day?

And that is just one junction. Then throw in the other changes going in on Melbourne Grove, Townley etc and you have a huge amount of traffic being forcibly funnelled down roads like Lordship Lane and East Dulwich Grove.

Do you see the problem a lot of us are concerned about - this isn't sovling a problem it's creating a much bigger one? It's classic traffic evaporation, it condenses and falls somewhere else.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by TheCropolite September 07, 08:19PM

Rockets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheCropolite Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > tiddles Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Rockets - spot on
> >
> >
> > You do realise this is what happens when you
> close
> > roads/lanes? There is an initial period where
> > congestion increases before it decreases.
> Google
> > it.
>
>
> 11% overall...Google it.....oh you don't need to
> it was in the links you sent earlier....in fact,
> if you had bothered to read the document links you
> sent you will see that in Waltham Forest there was
> a significant net increase in traffic on the roads
> not closed and this did not go down.
>
> Can the other roads in East Dulwich accommodate
> the remaining 89% of traffic? Dulwich Village has
> 7,000 car journeys per day through the Calton
> junction (the council's own numbers) - let's be
> very generous and say 1,000 of those journeys are
> then made by other means - are you sure the other
> roads that are not closed can accommodate another
> 6,000 car movements per day?
>
> And that is just one junction. Then throw in the
> other changes going in on Melbourne Grove, Townley
> etc and you have a huge amount of traffic being
> forcibly funnelled down roads like Lordship Lane
> and East Dulwich Grove.
>
> Do you see the problem a lot of us are concerned
> about - this isn't sovling a problem it's creating
> a much bigger one? It's classic traffic
> evaporation, it condenses and falls somewhere
> else.

Of those 6000 car movements how many are necessary? How many are over 1-2km? How many are transporting more than one person? People need to stop driving their cars like itís their god given right, itís really not that complicated. Check the data from that TFL link, itís ridiculous.


P.S. this 11% number you keep giving is just one example there are plenty of others where it is significantly more than this.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets September 07, 08:29PM

TheCropolite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rockets Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TheCropolite Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > tiddles Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Rockets - spot on
> > >
> > >
> > > You do realise this is what happens when you
> > close
> > > roads/lanes? There is an initial period where
> > > congestion increases before it decreases.
> > Google
> > > it.
> >
> >
> > 11% overall...Google it.....oh you don't need
> to
> > it was in the links you sent earlier....in
> fact,
> > if you had bothered to read the document links
> you
> > sent you will see that in Waltham Forest there
> was
> > a significant net increase in traffic on the
> roads
> > not closed and this did not go down.
> >
> > Can the other roads in East Dulwich accommodate
> > the remaining 89% of traffic? Dulwich Village
> has
> > 7,000 car journeys per day through the Calton
> > junction (the council's own numbers) - let's be
> > very generous and say 1,000 of those journeys
> are
> > then made by other means - are you sure the
> other
> > roads that are not closed can accommodate
> another
> > 6,000 car movements per day?
> >
> > And that is just one junction. Then throw in
> the
> > other changes going in on Melbourne Grove,
> Townley
> > etc and you have a huge amount of traffic being
> > forcibly funnelled down roads like Lordship
> Lane
> > and East Dulwich Grove.
> >
> > Do you see the problem a lot of us are
> concerned
> > about - this isn't sovling a problem it's
> creating
> > a much bigger one? It's classic traffic
> > evaporation, it condenses and falls somewhere
> > else.
>
> Of those 6000 car movements how many are
> necessary? How many are over 1-2km? How many are
> transporting more than one person? People need to
> stop driving their cars like itís their god given
> right, itís really not that complicated. Check the
> data from that TFL link, itís ridiculous.
>
>
> P.S. this 11% number you keep giving is just one
> example there are plenty of others where it is
> significantly more than this.

The problem is no-one knows about those 6,000 car journeys as the council never did that analysis - which we were saying they should have done as they didn't have the granularity to make a decision to close off Calton when they suggested it as part of OHS.

I take TFL data with a huge pinch of salt - all the research goes round and round in circles and often comes back to being sourced from those with a vested interest in justifying their desire to close roads for cars.

Regular poster on this forum ExDulwicher (who works in the business) says, if I remember correctly, that the most they have seen is 24% but the mean is very much 11%.

And I remind you that the 11% came from one of the reports you sent out so by default you must agree with that stat as you were encouraing us to read it!!! winking smiley

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Bic Basher September 07, 09:00PM

I was surprised when the section of Melbourne Grove outside the station was suddenly closed considering the businesses that are on that section of road.

There's some good reasoning to close the residential section of Melbourne Grove between East Dulwich Grove and LL, but this decision does seem short sighted.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by TheCropolite September 07, 09:14PM

Exactly, 24% less cars on the road is a very good step in the right direction, heck 11% less cars is better than nothing!

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Thorncombe September 07, 09:24PM

What happens when all cars are electric and the pollution argument can't be used anymore! As a compromise why can't Melbourne Grove be made one way, Derwent Grove the other direction.

More space for pedestrians and bike's, congestion on EDG avoided and businesses still have access to passing trade..

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