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messageRoad closure petition re-opened
Posted by dougiefreeman October 07, 07:29AM

Following the council manually overriding my petition timeline (that was due to run until 21st Dec) and closing it on 1st Oct, they have now re-instated it following my request for them to do so.

There are, I am certain, a great number of ED and DV residents who are not aware of the existence of this petition - so if you know of anyone who lives or works in the area that is not in support of the road closures or just the way the council has gone about implementing the LTNs, I urge you to forward on the link for them to sign.

Here’s a shortened link to make it easier for sharing: “shorturl.at/beqvz”

And the direct link to the petition: [moderngov.southwark.gov.uk]

There are 2448 signatures so far that have been garnered in just over 2 weeks - as the 500 signatures required for this to be presented at a cabinet meeting were met, the matter will be debated on 20 October at 4pm.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by KidKruger October 07, 08:56AM

Nice one Dougie.
Have you any idea WHY they closed the petition, what the process to decide on closing it involved, and who (which appointments) got to participate in the decision to close the petition.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by dougiefreeman October 07, 09:24AM

Yes I do know who closed it - I shan't name names on here - but the email I received:

"I can confirm that I was dealing with another petition completely unrelated to this one and inadvertently ended the petition date for yours. My understanding at the time was, as it was going to the next Cabinet meeting after it achieved over 500 signatures this would be ok to do. Unfortunately that should not have happened in this incidence.

I will re-instate the petition back to 21 December 2020 as originally arranged to allow people to sign the petition. I hope this has not caused any inconvenience. If it has, please accept my apologies."

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by KidKruger October 07, 09:56AM

Excellent work Dougie, thanks.
(I wasn't after names, just 'who'/which role in the hierarchy)

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by FairTgirl October 07, 10:57AM

dougiefreeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Following the council manually overriding my
> petition timeline (that was due to run until 21st
> Dec) and closing it on 1st Oct, they have now
> re-instated it following my request for them to do
> so.
>
> There are, I am certain, a great number of ED and
> DV residents who are not aware of the existence of
> this petition - so if you know of anyone who lives
> or works in the area that is not in support of the
> road closures or just the way the council has gone
> about implementing the LTNs, I urge you to forward
> on the link for them to sign.
>
> Here’s a shortened link to make it easier for
> sharing: “shorturl.at/beqvz”
>
> And the direct link to the petition:
> [moderngov.southwark.gov.uk]
> ay.aspx?id=500000049
>
> There are 2448 signatures so far that have been
> garnered in just over 2 weeks - as the 500
> signatures required for this to be presented at a
> cabinet meeting were met, the matter will be
> debated on 20 October at 4pm.

Glad it will get debated, but presume this is closed meeting? Will the public be able to view the minutes of that meeting?

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by dougiefreeman October 07, 11:37AM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excellent work Dougie, thanks.
> (I wasn't after names, just 'who'/which role in
> the hierarchy)


I can definitely say it wasn't a councillor - was a constitutional officer.


FairTgirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glad it will get debated, but presume this is
> closed meeting? Will the public be able to view
> the minutes of that meeting?


Good question - I'll find out more details. What I do know is that it's a cabinet meeting via zoom at which I've been invited to do a 5 minute presentation.
Problem is I don't think I can make it as I'm working at the time it's taking place. I had thought about trying to put together a video presentation that can be played - but I'd also thought maybe someone else could do the presentation instead of me.

If anyone is up for it perhaps drop me a PM.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by Lollipop October 07, 09:07PM

Great petition. I can't actually sign it because the Southwark website is so slow....

One question I think should be asked is "What is it they are measuring by closing off these roads?" Transparency seems to be lacking in Govt at all levels at the moment. They must have criteria to judge the success or failure and I think they should share that with those who vote for them. I'm all in favour of reducing pollution but I would like to see how they measure this particular strategy as a success.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by hibbs October 08, 11:23AM

Signed...big thanks Dougie.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by ed26 October 08, 04:23PM

Signed

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by dougiefreeman October 10, 11:49AM

2500 signatures and counting...

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by natty01295 October 10, 01:07PM

It is to do with Pollution Emissons that is why roads are being closed

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by heartblock October 11, 03:56PM

So.. pollution is higher on the roads that are not closed.....

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by malumbu October 11, 09:07PM

10,000s die each year from poor air quality. It is a shame that you need hard measures to try to get people not to drive. Yes I expect you will counter this with displacing pollution to other streets, congestion etc but we need to get over the mindset that we can drive what we want, when we want, how we want, where we want.... There will be many of you who use your cars sensibly, and many who don't.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by Jacqui5254 October 11, 09:30PM

Thank you dougiefreeman.
Signed.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by peckhamside October 12, 09:47AM

Well said Malumbu.
I will not be signing.
Car drivers- I'm sure some of you could be walking.
I will be inconvenienced by closure of P.R. East side but it is a small price to pay for health and safety.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by Rockets October 12, 10:27AM

peckhamside Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well said Malumbu.
> I will not be signing.
> Car drivers- I'm sure some of you could be
> walking.
> I will be inconvenienced by closure of P.R. East
> side but it is a small price to pay for health and
> safety.


But what if, as is happening throughout Dulwich at the moment, it makes roads other than those closed more polluted and less safe and, what if, the large majority of people can't switch to walking? A lot of us are doing our bit and walking and cycling more but aren't convinced enough people will be able to make that switch to avoid the inevitable displacement tsunami caused by these closures.

Do you think all the traffic using Peckham Rye East Side (especially those turning right onto East Dulwich Road) will just stop using their cars or will they try to find a route via backstreets?

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by cwjlawrence October 12, 10:43AM

Well done for doing something proactive but my personal view is that you're campaigning here against the wrong thing @dougiefreeman. We should all be campaigning for proactive ways to fundamentally reduce traffic rather than tinker on whether it's OK to pollute street A rather than street B or street C. What is required is a significant reduction in pollution rather than just arguing on which street it is better to poison people.

My 8year old daughter was left coughing and choking for about 1 minute after a Land Rover with terrible exhaust fumes drove along Calton Avenue this morning as she cycled to school.

And in turn, this was just after cycling up Hillsboro Road in a fog of disgusting white pollution from a car spewing noxious fumes. Even now - 2hrs on, I'm still coughing from this.

Thanks so much to these people who think it's OK to poison me and my children.

What is clearly needed is people to get out of their cars. I know that several people on this thread seem to dislike cyclists and their perceived holier than thou attitudes, but after the pollution I was on the receiving end of this morning (on quiet streets) then people need to wake up and smell the coffee (hopefully rather than the poisonous fumes!)

Apologies for the rant - it must be the fumes making me light headed!

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by dougiefreeman October 12, 11:49AM

@cwjlawrence

I think your understanding of my (and other pro-removal of the LTN people's) viewpoint is skewed.

We do not believe that things should return to the status-quo. We are all in complete agreement that our ultimate goal is to drastically reduce pollution across the whole of London.

However, we do not agree that this is achieved by closing roads as, aside from the science and data showing historically that measures like this just kicks the can down the road, we can see it with our own eyes 6 hours a day every day of the week. Melbourne Grove and Court Lane are both lovely and traffic free, but at a huge cost to Grove Vale, East Dulwich Grove and Lordship Lane. All of which have schools, homes, businesses etc So many many more children breathing in substantial extra fumes so that those select few streets can enjoy more peace and cleaner air.

Promoting active travel is of course important and it is fantastic to see so many people walking and cycling (I am one of them). However, just because one family / household is able to do this, does not automatically dictate that all other families / households should be able to do this also. There are a whole host of reasons why people need to make journeys by car - and these poeple need to be listened to and consulted AS WELL as families / households advocating for walking and cycling. The data shows that cycling is not the answer to reducing vehicle use - for a multitude of reasons. Public transport is the only thing that can really make the difference when it comes to the sort of numbers we need to achieve in the battle against the effects of climate change.
And so that is why I (and others) believe a one-size-fits-all ham-fisted ill-thought through measure like southwark council's here is not a fair or sensible approach.

We are campaigning for the LTNs to be removed so that a proper consultation can be conducted that works with the entire community to make change for the better that benefits all (and not just a select few).
This should include:
• Low emmissions schemes (ULEZ set to hit the whole area in Oct 2021 - this should have a huge impact on Nox emissions levels)
• Working with TFL to significantly improve local public transport including additional bus routes for more streets without adequate transport, increasing frequency of busses and offering real incentives to get people out of their cars
• Promotion of cycling / walking and other active travel including making roads safer / adding cycle lanes where possible
• Timed camera-enforced road closures for school streets
• Working with schools in the area to promote alternative means of travel (particularly independent schools)
• Possible exploration of higher taxes on private hire car firms

There needs to be a level of comprimise so that certain demographics are not dispproportionately affected whilst the super-affluent streets benefit greatly.

We understand that the council felt they needed to push these measures through quickly so that they could get funding from the gov in time. But given the transport sec himself has shown signs of backtracking on this, it really is clear to me (and 2600 others) that these measures should be reversed now and a proper consultation set up.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was october 12, 01:59pm by dougiefreeman.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by cwjlawrence October 12, 12:14PM

@dougiefreeman thank you so much for your thoughtful and detailed post. I suspect that we're actually very well aligned and after exactly the same outcome which is a cleaner less polluted East Dulwich in which we can all live.

I don't think that there is anything in your post that I disagree with, apart from the fact that I think we all need to be affected very significantly. Please excuse the turn of phrase, but the journey of travel over the last 30 years has been towards greater of car journeys and therefore the infrastructure of the city has adapted to the use of cars which will be difficult to unwind.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by Rockets October 12, 01:42PM

cwjlawrence Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @dougiefreeman thank you so much for your
> thoughtful and detailed post. I suspect that
> we're actually very well aligned and after exactly
> the same outcome which is a cleaner less polluted
> East Dulwich in which we can all live.
>
> I don't think that there is anything in your post
> that I disagree with, apart from the fact that I
> think we all need to be affected very
> significantly. Please excuse the turn of phrase,
> but the journey of travel over the last 30 years
> has been towards greater of car journeys and
> therefore the infrastructure of the city has
> adapted to the use of cars which will be difficult
> to unwind.

Despite what some of the pro-closure lobby would like to try and lead people to believe the two camps on here are not too far apart. Per Dougie and you Chris, we all agree that something has to be done but just that the council is making a complete mess of their ham-fisted attempts to find a solution.

It is clear that the most damaging closure has been that of the DV junction and I would suggest that the council needs to address that one immediately (and address it does not mean make the problem even worse by closing DV to through traffic or closing Townley Road as is their current suggested solution).

I think the problem is that each of the councillors is pursuing their own personal agenda and giving scant regard to the impact further down the road (pardon the pun!).

Perhaps if the council had had the guts to actually have dialogue their constituents instead of hiding behind Covid as a reason for zero communication then they probably wouldn't find themselves in this mess.

messageRe: Road closure petition re-opened
Posted by shoshntosh October 17, 03:50PM

I live in one of the roads between Court Lane and Woodwarde Road, so have been hugely impacted by the closure of Calton Avenue in the village. I drive about twice a week, and almost without fail used that junction to get wherever I was going. Surprise surprise the closure has made my car trips faaaar longer, like, to the point of being inane.

In fact, after driving just a few times, always a circuitous way around, I could't be asked so started riding my bike, or walking.

So, yeah, the closure did exactly what it's meant to do. I hated it at first but now I love it. Go figure. Even this old dog can learn new tricks (like how to enjoy cycling in London). Think I'll get rid of my car (which is a piece of junk anyway) as don't really see the point of it anymore. I'm looking forward to going car-free.

Having said all this, I suspect I would feel differently if I had small children or if I was in any way physically challenged or disabled. (Just profoundly out of shape, but even that's improving now thanks to the road closures).

Just my personal story. Totally get others will have different experiences, and different views. I don't know what the overall solution is, but there is now at least one less car on the roads.


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