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messageTraffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by gkb October 15, 07:53PM

This evening about 7pm all backroads are gridlocked - has there been an accident?

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Lowlander October 15, 07:58PM

Burst water main closing south circular at Dulwich Common

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by northernmonkey October 15, 08:57PM

Everywhere was gridlocked - dulwich village, Herne Hill, East Dulwich, Peckham rye - the south circular was fully closed off from around 3pm!

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly October 15, 08:59PM

It was a big gushing hole - I reckon it won't be fixed by tomorrow! Big impact on P13 and P4...
[tfl.gov.uk]

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by legalalien October 16, 06:40AM

Dulwich Common still closed this morning. It seems me pretty obvious that Court Lane needs to be reopened. Could then maybe close off the various side roads at the Court Lane end of them to discourage “short trips” from within the area, and keep the closure on Calton Ave near Gilkes Place, but open Calton to traffic going from DV into Court Lane (admittedly this would disrupt the SUV waiting area that seems to have developed at the Calton end of Court Lane - it was raining yesterday and there were about 8 cars parked up/ idling while waiting for children...)

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by ab29 October 16, 07:05AM

I live in the area and the traffic has been pretty much like this ever since the shambolic LTN scheme was put in place. It is like a rush hour all day long.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by heartblock October 16, 08:04AM

Welcome to my world since the LTN gated communities were set up. This is another issue with this scheme, when there is an issue elsewhere there are no alternative routes.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 08:23AM

The south circular was completely closed in both directions due to a burst water main. Nothing to do with LTNs. Confirmation bias much?

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly October 16, 08:24AM

Closing the South Circular due to an emergency was always going to cause jams all over the place. Having Court Lane open would just have meant Court Lane and Calton Avenue would also have been jammed as well as well as all the other roads. It wouldn't have meant there wouldn't be jams this morning.

Despite that, I look forward a conspiracy theory from the usual suspects about how Sadiq Khan himself put a hole in the water main because he owns a palace on Court Lane and is part of a plot led by George Soros to short BP...or something.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by legalalien October 16, 08:30AM

Have been keeping an eye on google maps this morning and watching the roads change colour. Interestingly, the process seems to start at on EDG at the Townley Road traffic lights, with traffic then extending back to Lordship Lane well before problems start anywhere else. I wonder if that’s always the case? The traffic problem on EDG seems to start a good 20 mins before it starts elsewhere.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by ED_moots October 16, 08:31AM

Having seen the closure (and traffic) this morning I agree rah that this would've been catastrophic with or without LTNs. Today is not a normal LTN and I'd advise against getting in cars unless you really have to. It's the worst I've seen in 11 years of living here, there wasn't much surface water on south circ (unlike last night where it was flodding into the park) so hopefully it will be open soon.

However the LTNs have removed what little slack there was from the road network. Even small hold ups (minor roadworks or two buses passing) are having a magnified impact on congestion.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by ab29 October 16, 08:33AM

More people use cars because of pandemic - I don't see this changing anytime soon - on the contrary. LTN has made it a hundred times worse.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Penguin68 October 16, 08:34AM

The south circular was completely closed in both directions due to a burst water main. Nothing to do with LTNs. Confirmation bias much?

The whole point of a local road system is that closures can be anticipated (they will happen, just don't know when) and if roads are open the traffic can be diverted/ divert itself. So the gridlock is a result of, yes certainly, the primary cause of closure but also the secondary effect of enforced (not accidental) closures of many of the relief routes. So the gridlock (or the worst of it) is absolutely a function of LTNs. I have lived in this area for over 30 years and some closures caused by force majeure have been a regular feature - up till now relieved (at least for 'locals' by the use of alternative routes through the 'Dulwich's'. These (well some of these) have now been cut-off by fiat not accident or incident.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by macutd October 16, 08:36AM

Yes it has everything to do with LTNs. If it wasn't for them the traffic might have somewhere to go.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by legalalien October 16, 08:36AM

No, not confirmation bias, I think people are just commenting that blocking some of the larger roads off reduces redundancy in the network. That’s a fact. Whether or not that reduction in would solve/ partially solve issues in any particular instance is a different question and will depend on the incident causing the traffic problem, surely.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Rockets October 16, 09:08AM

Of course traffic would have been bad with the A205 being shut but it is certainly made worse because of the LTN closures. That's commonsense as there are fewer roads for the traffic to try and find a way around the closure - especially east/west.

If you think it is bad today imagine what it would have been like if the additional closures the council wants to put in place would have been in.

It is, of course, an extraordinary situation but you have to acknowledge that having roads closed does create an impact and this is the second example in a week.

The same happened after the motorcycle accident on the southern end of Lordship Lane this week. Police closed the road in both directions and traffic travelling southbound had no option but to go east and the areas around Upland, Goodrich, Dunstans became gridlocked as it was the only route around the closure due to the closure at DV. Of course, that was for a much shorter period of time but it does show the impact closing roads has.

Interesting to see Cllr McAsh has been caught in the traffic chaos (one presumes on a bus or bike) and he responded to a post from the EDSTN lobby group as they got their defence in early (anybody else noticed that the pro-closure lobby groups are going into overdrive ever since Cllr McAsh's post on the LTNs).

[twitter.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 09:13am by Rockets.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly October 16, 09:23AM

The situation was made worse when some dickhead managed to push over the temporary plastic barriers (installed on the pavement to replace the permanent barrier some other dickhead knocked over a couple of months ago) and an additional section of permanent steel pedestrian railings...on the corner of College Rd and the South Circular. The steel barrier is now poking out into the roadway and can't be moved. That happened right in rush hour peak.


...but probably that was also the fault of a Stalinist planter outside a hairdressers...

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Rockets October 16, 09:29AM

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The situation was made worse when some dickhead
> managed to push over the temporary plastic
> barriers (installed on the pavement to replace the
> permanent barrier some other dickhead knocked over
> a couple of months ago) and an additional section
> of permanent steel pedestrian railings...on the
> corner of College Rd and the South Circular. The
> steel barrier is now poking out into the roadway
> and can't be moved. That happened right in rush
> hour peak.
>
>
> ...but probably that was also the fault of a
> Stalinist planter outside a hairdressers...

I'm sorry - what point are you trying to make here?

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by KidKruger October 16, 09:39AM

If these roads (LTN) are to be closed permanently, they should be built on. We are short of housing. Affordable homes with a walkway (original pavement) to the houses - keeping the 'no traffic' cause satisfied while using land wisely.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by mrwb October 16, 09:40AM

Total nightmare around Townley road this morning!

My feeling is our learned council will go the same way as our appalling national government within 12 months. Hordes of the angry unemployed masses going to do for them.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by heartblock October 16, 09:48AM

I’m not biased, I’m very much for positive actions to decrease road traffic and pollution. Extra protected cycle lanes and better pedestrian access. More charge points for electric cars and investment into public transport. The point is that in the 30 years of living in ED roads have had incidents that have caused traffic to be diverted, but with LTNs poorly planned an incident can cause more chaos and pollution as there are less ‘escape’ routes. Calling people biased or labelling them as car loving etc. does not actually move the conversation on. By the way..... I passed at least 10 adult cyclists using the pavement instead of EDG this morning on my walk, one nearly hit a mum with her two kids walking to school...dangerous, noisy and polluting.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 10:52AM

There is a hole is the south circular and peoples solution is to divert all the displaced traffic down side streets? I thought you were terribly worried about traffic from side streets being displaced on to main roads?

I would ah e thought that this is exactly the time for ensuring people have safe alternatives to the car!

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by macutd October 16, 11:11AM

Yes but safe alternatives to the car is not just making it worse for the car.

How about making all public transport free.

Encourage electric scooters, making them abide by the same rules as cyclists.

Encourage motor scooters which would ease congestion and lessen pollution.

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a hole is the south circular and peoples
> solution is to divert all the displaced traffic
> down side streets? I thought you were terribly
> worried about traffic from side streets being
> displaced on to main roads?
>
> I would ah e thought that this is exactly the time
> for ensuring people have safe alternatives to the
> car!

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Rockets October 16, 11:18AM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a hole is the south circular and peoples
> solution is to divert all the displaced traffic
> down side streets? I thought you were terribly
> worried about traffic from side streets being
> displaced on to main roads?
>
> I would ah e thought that this is exactly the time
> for ensuring people have safe alternatives to the
> car!

Oh dear you miss the point entirely.....rahrahrah do you not ever get the sense you're losing the argument?

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 11:32AM

So we need to be able to push diverted traffic from the south circular on to side streets?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 11:33am by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 11:37AM

Because that is what is meant by ‘there are fewer roads for people to find their way around the closure’.

I for one am glad that the LTNs are in place to stop this from happening.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 11:42am by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Rockets October 16, 11:51AM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because that is what is meant by ‘there are fewer
> roads for people to find their way around the
> closure’.
>
> I for one am glad that the LTNs are in place to
> stop this from happening.


But don't you realise that by closing the junction of Dulwich Village that it amplifies the problems elsewhere in circumstances such as this? The A205 has been shut before but the gridlock has never been this bad and this is solely down to the fact certain roads have been closed.

What you're saying is keep cars to A-roads. Only the most hardened pro-closure lobbyist (such as yourself) would categorise Court Lane as a "side road".

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 12:06PM

Except I haven’t said that have I Rockets? I’ve suggested that it’s not a great argument against the small number of filters to say “we should remove them so that when the south circular is shut, we can reroute traffic down side roads”.

No one has suggested that all cars should be kept to A roads.

Also, because Rockets loves a strawman:
No one is calling for a ban on cars
No roads have been closed to cars - people can still drive down every road and can still access every destination by car (they just have to, in some cases, take a more circuitous route)
There are only a handful of filtered roads, mainly along school routes
No one is saying that all journeys can be made on foot or by bike



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 12:30pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by dulwichfolk October 16, 12:06PM

Such a shame this didn’t happen a month from now when dulwich is totally closed due to the bus gates.

Then the traffic would be even worse and public transport so delay maybe tfl would put us all out of our misery and overturn the closures.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dulwichgirl82 October 16, 12:12PM

But it doesn’t, it does it for a few roads and makes it worse for the others. I think low traffic neighbourhoods is a confusing term as really it’s low traffic streets. Either end of Melbourne, Elsie and Derwent is traffic and pollution.

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because that is what is meant by ‘there are fewer
> roads for people to find their way around the
> closure’.
>
> I for one am glad that the LTNs are in place to
> stop this from happening.

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