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messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 12:22PM

It a question of whether we allow cars to dominate every single street, or we try to create some routes which are a bit quieter / safer (only four streets in ED I think question mark where cars can still drive, but not used to cut through between main roads).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 12:26pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dulwichgirl82 October 16, 12:30PM

But those routes are only really for some, I imagine far more people use lordship lane and east dulwich grove than those 4 roads, bearing in mind whatís on them respectively. So a minority benefits and the majority suffers. rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It a question of whether we allow cars to dominate
> every single street, or we try to create some
> routes which are a bit quieter / safer (only four
> streets in ED I think question mark where cars can still
> drive, but not used to cut through between main
> roads).

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Sparrowhawk October 16, 12:36PM

It's hilariously obtuse to try to characterise Court Lane as a 'side road' - it's one of the straightest, widest roads in the area!

Today's mess quite obviously isn't primarily caused by the DV road closure...but by removing the most obvious diversion route (i.e. DV / Court Lane / Lordship Lane) it is absolutely making the impact far worse.

It simply highlights yet another reason why the DV closure is so flawed - i.e. deliberately pushing traffic onto an ever smaller number of roads reduces the resilience of the network to absorb external shocks by making temporary work-arounds unavailable.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly October 16, 12:41PM

dulwichfolk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Such a shame this didnít happen a month from now
> when dulwich is totally closed due to the bus
> gates.
>
> Then the traffic would be even worse and public
> transport so delay maybe tfl would put us all out
> of our misery and overturn the closures.

It isn't anything to do with TfL.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by ali2007 October 16, 12:46PM

sharing this link for anyone who may not have seen it already:

[eastdulwichstreetspace.commonplace.is]

oh and brilliantly yesterday someone threatened me (& my daughter) and threw a glass bottle at me in my car as a direct response to their frustration regarding a traffic jam and un-moving traffic (which we were both caught in).

It was at the junction of Barry Road / Underhill. I had actually taken that route to avoid the backed-up traffic on LL. I avoided one traffic-jam only to be stuck in another sad smiley

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 12:46PM

@Dulwichgirl82 If you agree with the principle of trying to create some routes which are quieter / safer - then the question is where do you put them? You can't realistically close main roads to traffic. I would love Lordship Lane to be pedestrianised, but seriously?

What has been done instead, is that those 'cut throughs' - short cuts linking main streets (or ďdistributorĒ roads where buses, lorries, non-local traffic should be), have had measures put in place to make it easier for them to be used by those on foot / bike. At the same time, it removes the rat running traffic from narrow residential streets. This seems like a reasonable target for such measures to me.

I think James McAsh's post gives a good and balanced overview of the aims of the small number of filtered streets, as someone pointed out on another thread: [www.jamesmcash.com]

The alternative to doing this, is to allow every street to be dominated by cars and to effectively give up on trying to create quieter routes for walking / cycling all together.

Yes, it also has the benefit of creating low traffic neighbourhoods for the people who actually reside on those streets. I get that those back streets often have wealthier residents on them (although not exclusively). Whilst people may not like the 'inequity' of some having more respite from traffic and pollution than others, the alternative (making sure every street is dominated by cars) is not really my idea of a good outcome. It's effectively levelling down. The answer has to be to find ways of reducing traffic on main roads, without filling up all roads with motor vehicles and reducing traffic overall (something else which filtered roads / LTNs will help with).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 12:48pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 12:56PM

Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But those routes are only really for some, I
> imagine far more people use lordship lane and east
> dulwich grove than those 4 roads, bearing in mind
> whatís on them respectively. So a minority
> benefits and the majority suffers. rahrahrah
> Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It a question of whether we allow cars to
> dominate
> > every single street, or we try to create some
> > routes which are a bit quieter / safer (only
> four
> > streets in ED I think question mark where cars can still
> > drive, but not used to cut through between main
> > roads).

They're not only for some. Anyone can walk or cycle along those streets and they used by many people travelling to ED Charter, ED Station and many other destinations.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Sparrowhawk October 16, 12:57PM

Once again, it's hilariously obtuse to try, with a straight face, to imply that Court Lane is a 'cut through' or 'narrow residential street'. I've lived in Dulwich since the 1970s and that road, while residential, has always been a critical part of the network for both local and through traffic. It is wide, straight, perfectly capable of carrying a sensible amount of traffic...but is currently sitting almost empty. While other roads sit in nose-to-tail traffic and pollution as a result.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dulwichgirl82 October 16, 01:00PM

Weíve been through this before and think weíve talked it to death. I think something to reduce everyoneís traffic is fair not the lucky few at the expense of others.
I also agree re James post, Iím hopeful a middle ground can be found to help everyone. As Iíve mentioned restoring Melbourne grove and court lane May be a useful step and see if that relieves the excess congestion on ll and edg while allowing some streets to be closed.

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @Dulwichgirl82 If you agree with the principle of
> trying to create some routes which are quieter /
> safer - then the question is where do you put
> them? You can't realistically close main roads to
> traffic. I would love Lordship Lane to be
> pedestrianised, but seriously?
>
> What has been done instead, is that those 'cut
> throughs' - short cuts linking main streets (or
> ďdistributorĒ roads where buses, lorries,
> non-local traffic should be), have had measures
> put in place to make it easier for them to be used
> by those on foot / bike. At the same time, it
> removes the rat running traffic from narrow
> residential streets. This seems like a reasonable
> target for such measures to me.
>
> I think James McAsh's post gives a good and
> balanced overview of the aims of the small number
> of filtered streets, as someone pointed out on
> another thread:
> [www.jamesmcash.com]
> n-ltn-measures
>
> The alternative to doing this, is to allow every
> street to be dominated by cars and to effectively
> give up on trying to create quieter routes for
> walking / cycling all together.
>
> Yes, it also has the benefit of creating low
> traffic neighbourhoods for the people who actually
> reside on those streets. I get that those back
> streets often have wealthier residents on them
> (although not exclusively). Whilst people may not
> like the 'inequity' of some having more respite
> from traffic and pollution than others, the
> alternative (making sure every street is dominated
> by cars) is not really my idea of a good outcome.
> It's effectively levelling down. The answer has to
> be to find ways of reducing traffic on main roads,
> without filling up all roads with motor vehicles
> and reducing traffic overall (something else which
> filtered roads / LTNs will help with).

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by dulwichfolk October 16, 01:26PM

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dulwichfolk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Such a shame this didnít happen a month from
> now
> > when dulwich is totally closed due to the bus
> > gates.
> >
> > Then the traffic would be even worse and public
> > transport so delay maybe tfl would put us all
> out
> > of our misery and overturn the closures.
>
> It isn't anything to do with TfL.

Once the buses get delayed tfl will speak to the council/government and remove them.

It is why most of the big planning permissions consult with tfl and the impact to buses/transport. If it delays them it doesnít get passed....at least thatís how it should work.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 01:31PM

Sparrowhawk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once again, it's hilariously obtuse to try, with a
> straight face, to imply that Court Lane is a 'cut
> through' or 'narrow residential street'. I've
> lived in Dulwich since the 1970s and that road,
> while residential, has always been a critical part
> of the network for both local and through traffic.
> It is wide, straight, perfectly capable of
> carrying a sensible amount of traffic...but is
> currently sitting almost empty. While other roads
> sit in nose-to-tail traffic and pollution as a
> result.

Court Lane is probably the exception, granted. It's a relatively wide road (or at least one with less on street parking than others).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 01:32pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by dulwichfolk October 16, 01:35PM

The ULEZ and the government plan to potentially increase the congestion zone will do wonders for car numbers without having those with and those without road closures.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 01:36pm by dulwichfolk.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Charles Notice October 16, 01:47PM

And leave many people without any mode of transport and who are unable to fund a new vehicle.

I believe there are approx 2+ million cars that will be effected within the north and south circular roads when the Oct 2021 date comes into effect.

How do you expect people to sort things out now with all the covid and jobs situation.

None of these plans are thought out.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Rockets October 16, 01:54PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sparrowhawk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Once again, it's hilariously obtuse to try, with
> a
> > straight face, to imply that Court Lane is a
> 'cut
> > through' or 'narrow residential street'. I've
> > lived in Dulwich since the 1970s and that road,
> > while residential, has always been a critical
> part
> > of the network for both local and through
> traffic.
> > It is wide, straight, perfectly capable of
> > carrying a sensible amount of traffic...but is
> > currently sitting almost empty. While other
> roads
> > sit in nose-to-tail traffic and pollution as a
> > result.
>
> Court Lane is probably the exception, granted.
> It's a relatively wide road (or at least one with
> less on street parking than others).


So then, by default, you must recognise that the closure (do stop using filtered - it's not coffee and it makes you look a bit blinkered!!) of the DV junction is having a major effect on other roads due to the closure of the A205?

I had lunch on Lordship Lane today and the traffic northbound was queuing all the way back to Mr Lui's from the Goose Green roundabout.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 02:01PM

Reopening Melbourne Grove to traffic cutting between Lordship Lane and East Dulwich Grove / Grove Vale would do little to help congestion imo. The road is narrow and the junctions quickly become a problem. The cars and vans unable to pass each other on the north section used to cause chaos. It would also be a disaster right outside Charter East Dulwich.

Court Lane might relieve the main stretch of Lordship Lane, but would not relieve the southern section where most of the congestion occurs (from the library to the south circular), or the northern section of Dulwich Village (leading to junction with EDG).

I hope theyíll be some proper analysis of it all and the council will make sensible changes where theyíll make a difference, but generally, itís great having a few streets / routes where one can avoid traffic when walking / cycling locally.

The reality of the main roads is that theyíre always going to be busy, but hopefully less so once the ULEZ comes in. The idea that itís Ďunfairí if some streets are filtered and others arenít doesnít wash with me. The corollary of that argument is you either have no quiet routes at all, or you filter every street (which is plainly ridiculous)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 02:04pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dulwichgirl82 October 16, 02:12PM

Disagree re Melbourne grove north, Iíd say itís as wide as the part of edg down to Ll, and did used to be a bus route I believe. Possibly one way would be helpful to prevent the cars trying to pass each other. Also think itís the cause of a lot of traffic going down edg then goose green.

I also donít understand why when you comment itís always either all or nothing, either these specific measures or cars packing every road. There are lots of options which have been discussed previously that are more equitable. I donít think anyone is suggesting letís pack cars down every road but it seems to be what you come back to each time.




rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reopening Melbourne Grove to traffic cutting
> between Lordship Lane and East Dulwich Grove /
> Grove Vale would do little to help congestion imo.
> The road is narrow and the junctions quickly
> become a problem. The cars and vans unable to pass
> each other on the north section used to cause
> chaos. It would also be a disaster right outside
> Charter East Dulwich.
>
> Court Lane might relieve the main stretch of
> Lordship Lane, but would not relieve the southern
> section where most of the congestion occurs (from
> the library to the south circular), or the
> northern section of Dulwich Village (leading to
> junction with EDG).
>
> I hope theyíll be some proper analysis of it all
> and the council will make sensible changes where
> theyíll make a difference, but generally, itís
> great having a few streets / routes where one can
> avoid traffic when walking / cycling locally.
>
> The reality of the main roads is that theyíre
> always going to be busy, but hopefully less so
> once the ULEZ comes in. The idea that itís
> Ďunfairí if some streets are filtered and others
> arenít doesnít wash with me. The corollary of that
> argument is you either have no quiet routes at
> all, or you filter every street (which is plainly
> ridiculous)

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 02:17PM

Rockets Wrote:
-----------

> So then, by default, you must recognise that the
> closure (do stop using filtered - it's not coffee
> and it makes you look a bit blinkered!!) of the DV
> junction is having a major effect on other roads
> due to the closure of the A205?

The roads aren't closed though, they are filtered. Every street can be driven on and to. Residents can also use their cars, get deliveries etc., itís just not possible to drive straight through from one main road to the next. There is no journey which cannot be done by car as a result of the LTNs (although routes may be less direct), so in no sense are roads 'closed'. Some roads do get closed / pedestrianised - but that's not what we're talking about here.


> I had lunch on Lordship Lane today and the traffic
> northbound was queuing all the way back to Mr
> Lui's from the Goose Green roundabout.

So how what's the point you're making? This would be helped by diverting traffic down court Lane, through the village, down EDG to Lordship Lane and then the Goose Green roundabout? Because I think most people would probably just go straight down Lordship Lane.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 02:26pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dulwichgirl82 October 16, 02:19PM

Also you comment that it would be a Ďdisaster for charter northí but itís ok for a nursery to have cars packed outside it, which it didnít before the closures?

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Abe_froeman October 16, 02:20PM

They are closed though.

They have signs on them that say "Road Closed". Suggest you drive along Grove Vale or Dulwich Village and have a look.

Before they were closed they had other signs warning of the dates on which the closures would take place.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 02:23PM

Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also you comment that it would be a Ďdisaster for
> charter northí but itís ok for a nursery to have
> cars packed outside it, which it didnít before the
> closures?

Well, it depends whether you think the nursery traffic is a result of Melbourne Grove no longer being used as a cut through between two main roads. I suspect we might disagree. I also wonder how many kids are walked to the nursery (forgive me i don't know which one you're referring to) along Melbourne Grove - I don't know.

What I do know is that the north end of Melbourne Grove used to be regularly blocked. I also saw more than one road rage incident on that stretch because people couldn't pass. It also used to cause problems at the junction with EDG. There are many, many kids milling about on that stretch now that the school has opened. So yes, I do suspect there would be problems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 02:24pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dogkennelhillbilly October 16, 02:25PM

> (do stop using filtered - it's not coffee
> and it makes you look a bit blinkered!!)

The road is only closed at one end to through motor traffic. It's open to motorised access and open to through non-motorised traffic. Closed is not the right word. Filtered is.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Dulwichgirl82 October 16, 02:29PM

Well the nursery seems to think it is if you look at their twitter feed. Itís on the corner of Matham grove so yes I think the closures significantly effect them and would imagine most children get there on foot, all of whom have to go down either edg/matham and experience the pollution pushed into their play areas.

[twitter.com]

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Also you comment that it would be a Ďdisaster
> for
> > charter northí but itís ok for a nursery to
> have
> > cars packed outside it, which it didnít before
> the
> > closures?
>
> Well, it depends whether you think the nursery
> traffic is a result of Melbourne Grove no longer
> being used as a cut through between two main
> roads. I suspect we might disagree. I also wonder
> how many kids are walked to the nursery (forgive
> me i don't know which one you're referring to)
> along Melbourne Grove - I don't know.
>
> What I do know is that the north end of Melbourne
> Grove used to be regularly blocked. I also saw
> more than one road rage incident on that stretch
> because people couldn't pass. It also used to
> cause problems at the junction with EDG. There are
> many, many kids milling about on that stretch now
> that the school has opened. So yes, I do suspect
> there would be problems.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Metallic October 16, 02:31PM

Closed until late Sunday but more likely Monday.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 02:33PM

Abe_froeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are closed though.
>
> They have signs on them that say "Road Closed".
> Suggest you drive along Grove Vale or Dulwich
> Village and have a look.
>
> Before they were closed they had other signs
> warning of the dates on which the closures would
> take place.

The north side of Trafalgar Square is an example of a road which was closed (some years ago now).

Carlton avenue is not closed. You can drive your car down it if you don't believe me (assuming you have one).

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 02:37PM

It's a petty point perhaps, but with the claims that 'roads are being closed' and that 'people want to ban cars', being bandied about - it feels necessary to inject a little reality into the discourse. We have, I think, just 4 streets in ED which are still open to cars, but which can no longer be used as a short cut from one main road to another.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Rockets October 16, 02:38PM

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > (do stop using filtered - it's not coffee
> > and it makes you look a bit blinkered!!)
>
> The road is only closed at one end to through
> motor traffic. It's open to motorised access and
> open to through non-motorised traffic. Closed is
> not the right word. Filtered is.


Per Abe - they're closed. That's why the council labels them as such with big red signs that say ROAD CLOSED. And as you will know from your highway code a big red sign is a warning sign - so it is warning you the road is closed.....winking smiley

You can call them what you like but per the council and the highway code the roads are closed.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 02:39pm by Rockets.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by first mate October 16, 02:39PM

How odd, I donít believe I have ever noticed Melbourne north regularly blocked or lots of road rage incidents and over the years I have been up down frequently.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by legalalien October 16, 02:43PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rockets Wrote:
> -----------
>
> > So then, by default, you must recognise that
> the
> > closure (do stop using filtered - it's not
> coffee
> > and it makes you look a bit blinkered!!) of the
> DV
> > junction is having a major effect on other
> roads
> > due to the closure of the A205?
>
> The roads aren't closed though, they are filtered.
> Every street can be driven on and to. Residents
> can also use their cars, get deliveries etc., itís
> just not possible to drive straight through from
> one main road to the next. There is no journey
> which cannot be done by car as a result of the
> LTNs (although routes may be less direct), so in
> no sense are roads 'closed'. Some roads do get
> closed / pedestrianised - but that's not what
> we're talking about here.
>
>
> > I had lunch on Lordship Lane today and the
> traffic
> > northbound was queuing all the way back to Mr
> > Lui's from the Goose Green roundabout.
>
> So how what's the point you're making? This would
> be helped by diverting traffic down court Lane,
> through the village, down EDG to Lordship Lane and
> then the Goose Green roundabout? Because I think
> most people would probably just go straight down
> Lordship Lane.

Depends where they are going. If heading towards Herne Hill it would help considerably.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by rahrahrah October 16, 02:44PM

Iím not sure who would be heading north down LL to the goose green roundabout for herne hill?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was october 16, 02:46pm by rahrahrah.

messageRe: Traffic chaos in Dulwich Village - does anyone know the cause?
Posted by Rockets October 16, 02:47PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rockets Wrote:
> -----------
>
> > So then, by default, you must recognise that
> the
> > closure (do stop using filtered - it's not
> coffee
> > and it makes you look a bit blinkered!!) of the
> DV
> > junction is having a major effect on other
> roads
> > due to the closure of the A205?
>
> The roads aren't closed though, they are filtered.
> Every street can be driven on and to. Residents
> can also use their cars, get deliveries etc., itís
> just not possible to drive straight through from
> one main road to the next. There is no journey
> which cannot be done by car as a result of the
> LTNs (although routes may be less direct), so in
> no sense are roads 'closed'. Some roads do get
> closed / pedestrianised - but that's not what
> we're talking about here.
>
>
> > I had lunch on Lordship Lane today and the
> traffic
> > northbound was queuing all the way back to Mr
> > Lui's from the Goose Green roundabout.
>
> So how what's the point you're making? This would
> be helped by diverting traffic down court Lane,
> through the village, down EDG to Lordship Lane and
> then the Goose Green roundabout? Because I think
> most people would probably just go straight down
> Lordship Lane.

Do you know anything about the road layout of Dulwich? Do you not think that some of the traffic coming down Lordship Lane today might be trying to go west but can't because the A205 is closed....surely by closing one of the only ways to get west from Lordship Lane that forces more traffic down towards the Goose Green roundabout and EDG - thus creating tailbacks along Lordship Lane.........

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