Rail stations (what is happening to train services in Denmark Hill and East Dulwich)

[Claire35]

I apologise in advance if there have been lots of threads on this subject but does anyone have a clue what is happening to train services in Denmark Hill and East Dulwich? My work colleague has been worrying me about Denmark Hill closing, which is a wonderful route to Victoria, City Thameslink and London Bridge....surely it can not be closed being as it serves one of London's largest hospitals?

[DJKillaQueen]

I was at a Kings members meeting yesterday where plans were unveiled to build lifts and walkways within Denmark Hill station to facilitate disabled patients using the station for Kings College Hospital. Kings Trust have lobbied for a long time for that facility so I would assume that there is no danger of the station closing anytime soon.

There is though ongoing concern over the Victoria - London Bridge service but a campaign has been going for a while involving local councillors and community leaders to disuade Network Rail from their planned withdrawal of this service in 2012. You can read more here.

http://www.bellenden.net/category/srug-topic/south-london-line-sll-victoria-london-bridge-peckham-rye

[Claire35]

That's good news. Seems crazy that they would spend money on lifts etc when they are reducing the service...I presume most people using Denmark Hill are from South London and not from out side London and therefore would benefit from London-Victoria Hospital.

Worrying!

[DJKillaQueen]

The majority of Kings patients and staff are local people and Kings is an expanding hospital so Denmark Hill is a very important station. And yes the lifts are going ahead so not the act of a station facing closure. It's also a design that won't impinge on the Victorian structure so a lot of thought has gone into it.

As for the Victoria - London service.....always seems packed out to me during rush hour so how Network Rail can think it has no purpose beyond 2012 is mystifying to me. The fight goes on over that one.

[Claire35]

I agree that Denmark Hill is very important for Kings and glad to hear about the lifts etc.

What can I do? Is there a campaign to sign or anything anyone is doing re Victoria-London Bridge Line?

[DJKillaQueen]

There is a campaign and on this link you'll find how to get yourself on the campaign email list

http:// www.bellenden.net/ rail-cuts

[apenn]

I live closer to Forest Hill station and have often wondered why the London Br - Victoria service is not more frequest and does not run during rush hour. There must be a demand for it - it's rediculous. I therefore wouldn't assume that demand dictates service!

-A

[dc]

Don't forget that there will also be the East London Line (Phase 2b) extension running 4 trains in each direction through Denmark Hill from the first half of 2012.

So no, it's not closing - far from it with ?20m odd investment going into the station alone but there are undoubtedly some issues to be fought over re the South London Line services (Victoria to London Bridge) in the years ahaed.

[Huguenot]

To be fair to Network Rail, they've never said the London Bridge to Victoria line had no value.

They said that the two main terminals, and particularly LB didn't have sufficient platform space to accommodate the service as it stands at the moment alongside more long distance commuter lines and the ELL.

NR felt that the Dartford service alongside the ELL and new Bellingham service provided a better solution than the south London Line, but not on quite the same terms as it does at the moment.

The lobby groups have been effective in getting their point across... "A survey by London Travelwatch found that 88% of passengers on the line felt they would be inconvenienced by the changes, the survey also noted that respondents were generally unaware of the ELL/Overground proposals or of any possible benefits they might bring"

So a lot of the people are protesting with half the information. This is undoubtedly a significant failure on behalf of Network Rail. However, I believe that the protest groups are also deliberately keeping their members poorly informed - and suspect they have a hidden agenda of protest for protest sake, rather than a better service for commuters.

In the sense that the protesters are ill-informed, then I think it's likely that a lot of the fuss is a knee-jerk reaction to change per se.

A map of the proposed changes can be seen here

You can also view a pdf attached to this post.

I should point out that I have no affiliation with the rail services, I just hate to see anyone taking an unfair slagging from people who aren't being given the whole picture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/South_london_line_future.png/800px-South_london_line_future.png

[Huguenot]

This is kind of a good summary:

"For example, by 2012 the number of trains serving Denmark Hill station will increase from nine to 11 an hour during peak times and from six to eight trains in the off-peak. Improved connections and more frequent trains will mean that 30,000 more people will live within 30 minutes of King?s College Hospital in 2012 compared to 2006."

[juliap]

Thanks for all that interesting information, Huguenot.

Am I the only one wondering if we'll ever actually get phase 2b of the ELL extension, though? Surely any transport work that has not already been started is under major threat now?

I can imagine that we might end up with no more LB - Victoria service, and no ELL extension to compensate. That would be awful.

[Huguenot]

Well sure, anything's possible - but I'm not sure it's valid to protest against something the we imagine might happen!

So far as I understand the developments are all linked. Hence if the funding is cut then the system stays as is.

[DJKillaQueen]

However, I believe that the protest groups are also deliberately keeping their members poorly informed - and suspect they have a hidden agenda of protest for protest sake, rather than a better service for commuters.

Why don't you go and find out something about the various groups involved first ......they include some very well established and respectable groups like Peckham Vision and stalwarts like Eileen Conn who has spent her life fighting for a better area, both economically and socially. You are talking nonsense.

So how will rail passengers travel by rail to London Bridge from 2012? THAT's what the campaign is about...preserving South London's Rail links to the city and tube network instead losing another fast direct service. Given how poorly connected South London is, the campaign is indeed well informed and in the eyes of many fighting for something worth saving.

[Jeremy]

More trains does not necessarily equate to a better service. Most people want to go directly into central London. The London Overground does not go into the centre.

I expect a lot of people will change at Peckham Rye, onto the (already overcrowded) London Bridge service.

I'm sure some will benefit from the London Overground, but generally I would say it's bad news for local residents.

[njc97]

DJKQ - people trying to get to LB could either change at Peckham Rye/Queens Road Peckham or change at Canada Water and go one stop on the Jubilee Line. Neither would add greatly onto the length of their journey.

And depending on where they are going in the city, they could change to DLR at Shadwell or walk from Shoreditch High St. The ELL makes getting to the City easier and getting to Canary Wharf (where a lot of South Londoners work) a lot easier.

[Jeremy]

I strongly disagree that it will make it easier to get into the City. Having to change trains or use the DLR is not easier than a direct route.

It will improve the journey to Canary Wharf if you travel outside peak time. But good luck getting onto an east-bound jubliee line train from Canada Water at 8:30am.

[DJKillaQueen]

I agree with Jeremy. Given that many people using London Bridge do so to change then I'd find yet ANOTHER change a big deal. Sending South Londoners East to then go West again? The whole point of the LB Victoria route is that it provides a direct link for South Londoners to two fairly central good connections both West and East of the City.

The new routes have everything to do with opening up the East section of London because of the olympics etc while taking away a direct link that is important to South London. In other words the ease of connectivity of South London has been sacrificed for East London.

[Torben Pieknik]

Jeremy the Jubilee line upgrade will be finished later this year adding 33 per cent capacity to the line, which will do a great deal to ease crowding and will cut journey times. The DLR has just had a 50 per cent capacity increase.

You also said most people want to go into central London. According to responses to the Mayor's Transport Strategy Consulatation the third highest priority for people responding was to provide better interchanges to reduce the need to enter central London to access other routes.

A key point which campaigners neglect to mention is the cut to services to London Bridge is due to Network Rail's Thameslink works and has nothing to do with the East London Line. If we didn't get the East London Line the link to London Bridge would still be cut.

[Huguenot]

I could of course add that you can get the train into Blackfriars and walk for just three more flipping minutes.

Look, if you want to campaign on me me me London Bridge London Bridge London Bridge from DENMARK HILL ONLY AND DIRECTLY EVERY BLOODY MINUTE, then you're on a winner. Congratubloodylations.

You can't win the battle on Victoria, because the trains will still go there. This service was only once every 30 mins anyway.

The changes to trains confer vast benefits to many more people than YOU YOU YOU.

I'm just glad that I'm not the self-centred egotist that tries to engage vast numbers of people on the basis of fabricated bullknackers just to add a few minutes to my own convenience.

It comes as no surprise that the consensus of people against NR on this politicised rampage are living at the taxpayers convenience anyway. No experience of compromise, no experience of commitment, just a shedload of me me me gimme gimme gimme take take take strop strop strop.

Go for yer life ;-)

[R&A]

Wow Huguenot what a rant - hilarious.

If you don't like this discussion then stop reading these threads.

Clearly a number of people will be directly affected by the proposal, hence it cropping up on the local forum time and time again. It is after all a LOCAL forum, here to discuss LOCAL issues such as the CUTTING of local transport services in order to serve another district's (NON LOCAL) needs. It's a perfectly rational debate and we're losing it (lost)anyway so why are you so bothered?

Last I looked there wasn't a random-angry forumite sitting on his/her own on a train on the way to London bridge. It's not just Denmark hill either, it's other stations like Queens Road, Battersea, Wandsworth Road and Clapham (the northern line is a mess)

London Bridge does, after all, feed the City of London which is (was!) one of the top financial districts in the world, so i would guess that more than one person works there.

Moreover I have walked from Blackfriars to London Bridge and it was a great deal more than 'just three more flipping minutes' more like 15-20mins and that assumes people weren't walking east from London Bridge to their place of work....

If you add 20mins each way to a Londoner?s journey it is a BIG deal. If you work 7:30am to 6:30 at night your travel time is significant and if you add 40 mins to that, it's a non starter. Especially if you have family at home or say your nursery charges you ?1 a minute if you're late(!)

So using exaggeration to prove your point isn't going to wash with those people and if i might add looks a little desperate.

I totally support this campaign and i don't use that train at the moment, but i used to (from Queens road peckham) and i remember the drama of trying to squeeze on it each morning.

So, with respect, it's not about MY journey is it, or ME ME ME as you put it?

[Jeremy]

Hugo - I understand your point, it's for the greater good, etc. But this is the real world. It's easy to stand from the outside and be idealistic, but your opinions would be shared by few in the local area.

[Huguenot]

Why would I move on? I'm enjoying exposing these double talking cads. ;-)

Most of these people aren't protesting because of the facts, but because they want to be part of a lynch mob. Makes 'em feel good.

All these customers have to do is change at Peckham Rye. PR will have MORE services.

Hardly the end of the world is it?

But for this minor inconvenience they're willing to trash the benefits of a better transport system across South London?

The reality is they can't see beyond the end of their own noses.

I don't mind that so much, it doesn't make me cross - it's the absolute brazen bullshitting that goes with it.

R&A is typical - 'here to discuss LOCAL issues such as the CUTTING of local transport services'

Not it's NOT. There will be MORE trains per hour serving MORE stations and MORE people. This crap is what drives me nuts.

'It's not just Denmark hill either, it's other stations like Queens Road, Battersea, Wandsworth Road and Clapham'

No it's NOT. That's just another piece of nonsense: Queens Road still has a regular service, just not from DH. Wandsworth Road and Clapham will have MORE services from DH. I don't know if R&A has ever been to Battersea, if he has he'll be familar that it gets a train a minute, I don't think they'll be crying over a lost service from DH.

As a regular user of that service in the past I can tell you that the number of people getting on at Battersea and getting off at DH could be counted on no fingers.

I can also tell you that the number of people getting on at DH and getting off at Queens Road could also be counted on no fingers.

If the campaigners can't tell the truth then that makes them charlatans, manipulative destructive spoilers.

[R&A]

Currently those that get the train from QRP, get to QR in the morning and hop on a train to London bridge - there within 10 mins. They would AIM for certain train to reduce platform time. Then they get the tube and carry their journey on

In future they'd have to get a train to PR or Canada Water CHANGE. Then wait for another train and get on that to london bridge

As a commuter you therefore must know that a 'change' is slow at the best of times and that's assuming tube like regularity... not overground slow changes or ELL changes where they'll be just 4 trains an hour...?

Slowing down a commute into London has real knock on effects to commuters. How can you not understand this as detrimental to our transport service in the local area?

Why is there across party commitment including Boris Johnson to keep the SLL when it was such a good idea to cut it?

I remember you used to say that it was a personal campaign against boris... but now even he's on board. Is he crazy like us? is he being completely irrational like us?

If it's not a cut to local transport services i dont' know what is

Also, as someone pointed out earlier there's a risk that we don't get the replacement services you talk about. This is a real risk and any rational person would want to campaign doubly hard to keep our existing services because of that real risk...

[SeanMacGabhann]

London Bridge is A feed into the City - it's isn't the only point of entry. I have worked in Moorgate, Tower Bridge, St James, Southwark Bridge and currently Blackfriars. Never had a problem commuting to the city on public transport , not even when I had 6:30am starts and I can only see the Overground helping

Blackfriars to London Bridge is a 20 minute walk, it's true - but it's amazing what a pleasant walk can do for one's thoughts instead of scrambling on a train the whole time - those 20 minutes are not necessarily "lost" or something you can't afford but are part of the day I actively enjoy

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

But how will the away teams get to Millwall? We need South Bermondsey as a strategic ambush point. Selfish the lot of you!