The rise of populism

[????]

Thought this was interesting ...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/01/blame-trump-brexit-identity-liberalism

[Seabag]

Me too, specially the soft vs not Brexit bit

Good article and deserves a read

[red devil]

I don't think it's as simple as 'soft vs not Brexit', the general consensus on the Remain side is not to stop the Brexit process but rather that the country should be allowed a second vote on the terms of Brexit, be they hard or soft. As it stands people voted for a concept, without any idea what it entailed politically, economically and socially...

[jaywalker]

Some thoughts on populism:

1 In an era of mass apathy (not new but now greatly accentuated - all that was happening at least by the mid C19th after the great rural to urban migration) people will vote not in adulation (the fascist model) but in a mix of resignation, resentment (not voting for her!), and just hope-for-something-better even though we know he doesn't mean what he says (the politics of nostalgia, for having back something that has only the status of fantasy).

2 The causes of mass apathy are nothing to do with immigration, but immigration accentuates it for those who are already cut off from a sense of living-engagement with others. In the rich and growing city I love immigration. In an isolated or impoverished place it is hated. But it is fairly transparently the focal point for anger and resentment rather than the underlying condition (and is not generally meant when people find they do have a living relation to a migrant worker). Think of the many ethnic communities that have settled so well all over the UK and so enriched our inter-national culture in times of economic growth.

The consequences of 1 and 2 are going to be a disaster. Trump and Brexit have promised utopias - no such place. Immigration is the life-blood of our otherwise ageing population (think Japan). There will be more disruption, not less. The resulting step-change in disenchantment will risk reactionary politics - we are already seeing this in the UK from an irresponsible and cynical government.

3 The causes of mass apathy have little to do with the growth of the narcissistic personality (again, this is a focal point for a few but not the underlying issue). It is more sensible to see that personality as a requirement of the shift from industrial to service production. Individuals here need to be personalised: not so on the assembly line (where stoic discipline is required). Like any form of personality it has its pathological variants (the narcissism of entitlement, rights without responsibility, immediate gratification, resentment of anything difficult, outrage at non-conventional forms of thought, the disgraceful (and growing) campaigns to stop freedom of speech on university campuses) as well as its great virtues: respect for the other, welcoming of alterity, disbelief in atavistic notions of nation and religion, rejections of demands for conformist behaviour in regard to gender, sexuality and drugs.

[miga]

"As for the future, commentators such as Haidt and Lilla seek a ?post-identity? liberalism, built round a restoration of the nation state as repository of agreed values"

I worry about the idea of "agreed values" (like some kind of multinational insurance company). As an immigrant, what I've liked about this country is its tolerance and pragmatism, people don't bang on about being British in the way Americans and Aussies do, for example, and that's nice. Maybe I'm living in a bubble.

[Nigello]

There is a problem with the fetishisation of minorities in large parts of the (mainstream) media.

Reading Twitter and Huffington Post etc, it is hard to avoid the breathlessness with which writers gush over anyone who is not a male Caucasian. It's boring and ineffective and it drives home divisions, ultimately, because it pushes identity/individualism over community (despite what they think they are trying to achieve). The "strong, gay woman" or "fierce, disabled Muslim" or "glad-to-be-mad Cornishman" thing is tiresome, hackneyed and (self) indulgent.

I tick a few boxes but am fed up with hearing the cringe-making lionising praise of a certain "varietal" of human being every time I open a newspaper/social media.

As Maya Angelou wrote, we're more or less the same.

[Jenny1]

I think the emphasis in the Jenkins article is misplaced. I believe that people only really get worried about 'identity' when they're beleaguered.

I would say that the political shifts and upsets we're seeing at the moment are all about the economy, and more specifically the glaring (and growing) inequalities within it. There's a sense that governments are unable, or unwilling, to shield their citizens when times get tough. Everything else grows out of that - surely. And the roots of this are much more about the failure to respond adequately to the financial crash of 2007-8 than broader issues of globalisation.

I think that's the story in the UK, anyway. The US is probably a bit different. And there lies another problem - conflating the UKIP vote and the Trump vote - I don't think they're quite the same thing (however much Mr 'Lift Doors of Gold' Farage might like to believe they are).

[JohnL]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think the emphasis in the Jenkins article is

> misplaced. I believe that people only really get

> worried about 'identity' when they're

> beleaguered.

>

> I would say that the political shifts and upsets

> we're seeing at the moment are all about the

> economy, and more specifically the glaring (and

> growing) inequalities within it. There's a sense

> that governments are unable, or unwilling, to

> shield their citizens when times get tough.

> Everything else grows out of that - surely. And

> the roots of this are much more about the failure

> to respond adequately to the financial crash of

> 2007-8 than broader issues of globalisation.

>

> I think that's the story in the UK, anyway. The US

> is probably a bit different. And there lies

> another problem - conflating the UKIP vote and the

> Trump vote - I don't think they're quite the same

> thing (however much Mr 'Lift Doors of Gold' Farage

> might like to believe they are).

and ironically we're sacrificing the economy (possibly)

in order to take back control - what control ?

Mark Carney has made some effort recently and been ignored

(or pushed back in his box).

[miga]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I would say that the political shifts and upsets

> we're seeing at the moment are all about the

> economy, and more specifically the glaring (and

> growing) inequalities within it. There's a sense

> that governments are unable, or unwilling, to

> shield their citizens when times get tough.

> Everything else grows out of that - surely. And

> the roots of this are much more about the failure

> to respond adequately to the financial crash of

> 2007-8 than broader issues of globalisation.

Sort of - it's not identity politics itself that has been lowering living standards, but while "the Left" has been focusing on identity politics, a lot of traditional Left issues (workers' rights, jobs etc.) weren't being dealt with by the Left. Or that seems to be the popular feeling. The other aspect is that Labour bought wholesale into free markets, deregulation etc. preceding the GFC, and only with Corbyn in this country appear to return to some of those old points, so when isolationists like Trump come along and offer those old comforts there are people who are very receptive, whose views or needs weren't being addressed. In fact, Trump and Corbyn are, I think, different manifestations of the same underlying problems. An example of the kind of thing I'm thinking of are Trump adverts focusing on Clinton's hedge fund campaign funding.

[jaywalker]

what Marx said

[Earl Aelfheah]

Farage implying that Jo Cox's widow has links to extremism today. What an odious little tw*t.

[????]

Odious he is - but his remarks seems to have caused more outrage in 'liberal' social media than 12 deaths at a Christmas market, which tells me something.....

[Earl Aelfheah]

Oh come on Quids, that's nonsense. The outrageous attack in Berlin has been front page of every newspaper.

They're different stories.

[Earl Aelfheah]

..actually I take that back. The Sun, the Mail and the Express decided to lead with the queen having a cold:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs/the_papers

[Otta]

Thing is, attacks like this are becoming so common that we're all getting desensitised to them. That doesn't mean they're any less terrible, but what else is there to say?

Whereas Farage is so blatantly being outrageous, it's right that people respond to it. We can't allow this sort of shit to become the new acceptable, and I genuinely believe we're moving that way.

[????]

You haven't become desesntitised to Farage's comments yet? His home spun idiocy is pretty common. I have Deja Vu BTW Otta I'm sure I'm having this conversation on two places at once :)

Did you take the same stance on say all the comments when Thatcher died out of interest?

Much of left wing social media is a putrid place too

[miga]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thing is, attacks like this are becoming so common

> that we're all getting desensitised to them. That

> doesn't mean they're any less terrible, but what

> else is there to say?

And have been much more violent and frequent in Iraq for over a decade, but those barely make it into the bylines these days.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The two are different stories. It's just silly to suggest that Farage can say outrageous things and because there are other horrors going on, we shouldn't talk about it.

Your observation about the 'left wing media' isn't born out by the front pages BTW. Look at which papers led with what.

[????]

"Social Media" rah....throughout! Read slower :)

[Earl Aelfheah]

Well sure, social media is awful, what do you expect.

Otta's right about Berlin though. What can you say about such an atrocity? It's just awful, but what more can one really say?

[????]

..and Farage? surprise you? New? Just a bit of a disconnect in my view....

[Earl Aelfheah]

TBH Farage did surprise me. It seems particularly nasty and personal and (perhaps the surprising bit), clumsy.

[Jenny1]

Yes - I think Farage is 'new'. 'New' in that he says things which no mainstream politician in this country would have thought acceptable before. As Otta says if this becomes the new 'normal' we're in very deep trouble.

[????]

How about:

"?[i would like to] go back to the 1980s and assassinate Thatcher."

From the shadow Chancellor - a man who incidentally lionized and championed the IRA who nearly did assassinate her and her democratically elected cabinet - say......

...and there's tons of similar, mainly from the sanctimonious, hypocritical left who are just as unpleasant in many cases - a continued dialogue of "Tory Scum" is part of this you know......

[JohnL]

Ian Paisley called Pope John Paul II the Antichrist in the EU parliament.