Wearing Poppies - A serious question

[BB100]

I've just heard about a secondary school who are making all their children wear poppies at school. Can they do that? I thought it was wear your poppy with pride, not wear your poppy with pressure. Doesn't it go against all what poppies stand for?

[david_carnell]

I think schools can pretty much do what they want re: uniform.

Whether they should is another matter. I guess dying for freedom would seem to be against this sort of enforcement. However, if it makes children think about history, democracy and all those who lost their lives then perhaps it's worthwhile.

Do you have any further details?

[BB100]

I wouldn't say poppies could be classed as uniform in the same way as a tie, etc, and I very much doubt schools could get away with enforcing the wearing of a cross in the same way (unless they were a religious school). I know which school it is but didn't really want to post that bit of info because journalists sometimes read these forums. Some teachers approached the children in the dinner queue and asked why they didn't have one and told them they must wear one the next day and for the rest of the week. I know of someone else who used to make people wear symbols and his name was Hitler - That's the way I'm feeling about it.

My apologies for the time of my opening post - it was purely coincidental and nothing was intended by it at all.

[david_carnell]

I think the Hitler comparison is a little far fetched. These aren't symbols of identification or used to single out minorities. Nor are those people subsequently being marched off to gas chambers. So, please, leave Godwin alone and use a more appropriate metaphor. Not only is it distasteful but it invalidates your latter arguments.

Your comparison to a crucifix doesn't stand either since poppies aren't symbols of religion but rememberance.

I'm not altogether comfortable with a school enforcing this sort of thing but accusations of fascism are just daft.

I wonder perhaps, if the white poppy of pacifism would be an alternative protest for those students who disagree with the policy?

[DaveR]

It's wrong to compel anybody to wear a poppy. There are occasional stories about newsreaders etc. being criticised for not wearing them on-air which is equally objectionable. Not wearing a poppy should not be understood to represent any particular opinion, and as such should not be anybody's business but the individual.

[zeban]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> I think the Hitler comparison is a little far

> fetched. These aren't symbols of identification or

> used to single out minorities. Nor are those

> people subsequently being marched off to gas

> chambers. So, please, leave Godwin alone and use a

> more appropriate metaphor. Not only is it

> distasteful but it invalidates your latter

> arguments.

>

> Your comparison to a crucifix doesn't stand either

> since poppies aren't symbols of religion but

> rememberance.

>

> I'm not altogether comfortable with a school

> enforcing this sort of thing but accusations of

> fascism are just daft.

>

> I wonder perhaps, if the white poppy of pacifism

> would be an alternative protest for those students

> who disagree with the policy?

Absolutely agree with your post David Carnell, 100%. I'm actually quite disgusted BB100 that you'ld even make such a comparison. Perhaps you should think a little harder before writing your posts.

[Marmora Man]

Wear a poppy, don't wear a poppy - everybody's choice and should never be forced.

What I, personally, dislike is the habit of wearing white poppies as representing a protest against the red poppy's "glorification of war". This is a total misunderstanding - the red poppy is a symbol of remembrance to acknowledge the suffering and pain of war.

[zeban]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> Wear a poppy, don't wear a poppy - everybody's

> choice and should never be forced.

>

> What I, personally, dislike is the habit of

> wearing white poppies as representing a protest

> against the red poppy's "glorification of war".

> This is a total misunderstanding - the red poppy

> is a symbol of remembrance to acknowledge the

> suffering and pain of war.

Again, completely agree. The red poppy is in no way a glorification of war, and if anyone thinks this they've clearly missed the point completely and quite frankly are rather daft.

[BB100]

Sorry that you feel like that but I was using the example more for the principle of forcing someone to do something and expecting conformity, rather than the direct comparison of all what Hitler represents.

The Poppy stands for many things, and whilst it does not hold the connotations of the cross, it does represent certain values and beliefs, and in that way I am uncomfortable that a school feels it can exercise its power to enforce such a rule. Wouldn't wholesale wearing of poppies in a school identify and single out minorities of children who didn't want to wear one? So David I'm not sure I agree with you on that one, and although your point about the gas chambers is valid I am talking about principles here, not actions. Are we rearing a nation of children who can think for themselves or one that just obeys orders? Doesn't making someone wear one somehow devalue the pride that people wear it for?

[david_carnell]

I'll repeat that I'm not really keen on the school doing this, however:

If children weren't wearing them not through ideological objection (unlikely) and just through laziness or apathy the I don't think forcing them to wear one whilst hopefully highlighting the issues it raises is altogether a bad thing.

[StraferJack]

what do we think young people feel about the apparent disparity between what the poppy signifies, and politicians wearing them whilst responsible for participation in arguably unnecessary wars ?

[Huguenot]

It sounds a bit ridiculous BB100 - one school asking their pupils to honour remembrance day is not "rearing a nation of children that just obeys orders".

It is also ridiculous to assume that children can always decide for themselves what is right or wrong. Sometimes adults need to know where to draw boundaries.

Children also need to know when to conform to rules and regulations, and when they can act independently. If you're bringing children up to believe that their own wishes always take priority then you're failing them and failing society.

It's clear that the school in question feels that respect and recognition for the sacrifices and horrors of war fall on a particular side of that boundary, and that the petty whims of children selfishly craving to be different is not sufficient reason to dismiss the suffering of the millions who died.

Not everyone will agree with that, but if you disagree don't send your kids to that school. Claiming this is a campaign of indoctrination not only misses the point (what do you think education is for - playtime?), it's also, well... childish.

[StraferJack]

you remember how much flak Jon Snow took for not wearing a poppy last year?

You don't need to be a petty child to be uncomfortable with that

[Marmora Man]

what do we think young people feel about the apparent disparity between what the poppy signifies, and politicians wearing them whilst responsible for participation in arguably unnecessary wars ?

Questions:

1. Why young people - why not all people?

2. Is there a disparity - it is entirely possible to be wearing a poppy in remembrance of the pain, suffering and agony of war, but still engage in a war. Of itself that is not illogical and certainly not hypocritical.

3. Which unnecessary wars are you referring to? Iraq - the original war aim of ousting Saddam Hussein was, on balance, right - tho' the machinations of Bush & Blair in trying to make WMD the reason was not and the subsequent mismanagement of the post conflict period was abysmal. Afghanistan - again the initial action had a moral imperative that has been lost in pride, stubborness and poor strategy. Libya - on the whole a good call by Cameron & Sarkozy and well managed by NATO - the trick now is to stay out of it and let Libyans manage Libya.

4. I think you are trying to tie a simple question about poppies into a wider debate

[StraferJack]

MM

1) good question - I think I stuck with "young" after they had been brought up by other people in reference to the school. But your point stands - the question is equally applicable to all

2) It's possible to do both simultaneously, but it's also possible to be hypocritical about it. The point of remembering the suffering should surely be to try and avoid it where possible, which leads to ...

3) We'll have to disagree on much of this

4) I'm not sure I am, but I'll try and avoid doing it again if I have

[Huguenot]

Regarding newsreaders, we're getting lost in a bit of liberal hype here.

Newsreaders are employed as agents of the broadcaster - they are effectively spokepeople. The broadcaster is within their rights to tell them to wear whatever they want them to. If the newsreader doesn't like it they can always resign.

Whether you give/get flak or not (nice metaphor ;-)) depends on whether you believe that the deaths of millions of people on behalf of a nation requires national recognition. It's not within itself jingoist.

If the consensus of opinion is that it is, then you can expect to get grief for breaking the taboo in the same way as you would for walking down the high street yelling swear words in people's faces.

[StraferJack]

I'm pretty sure Snow is more than a spokesperson - otherwise C4 would have sorted out those ties years ago

[StraferJack]

And nor did he get into trouble with his employer, he got it from some viewers

he merely pointed out that it's only recently that wearing them outside Remembrance Sunday (when he himself wears one) has become ubiquitous, and an inflation has set in. because of that inflation he was accused of "dishonouring the dead" which is pretty fatuous and an example of why some people bristle around the poppy

Some Irish people (not all) also dislike the link with the British legion and their link with Unionist groups

[Huguenot]

Only 'recently' must mean at least 40 years, because I used to wear one at school, and I didn't go to school on a Sunday.

I can understand why the Irish wouldn't be keen on unionist links, but to dismiss the poppy appeal on this basis seems crude and inconsistent.

I've got ten quid that says they don't sell their car because of the link between oil and wars in Iraq?

Actually I can't understand why the Irish would wear a poppy recalling the privations from the military activities of an overseas power anyway? I don't support the Soviet armed forces after all (although I might if I lived there out of respect).

Why not just not wear it and say it's because you're Irish? It's forgivable, although people might wonder why you were reaping the benefits of British society if you don't respect the sacrifices of individuals required to achieve it!! ;-)

[StraferJack]

i don't think that's the reason H

[Marmora Man]

A significant number of Irishmen died in WWI and a lesser number, but still significant. Umber served in UK armed forces in WWII fighting the Nazi and Japanese Axis powers - an action that brought them little but condemnation in Eire, including discrimination for jobs, children's schooling and social benefits. A number of veterans were buried in unmarked graves. This situation is now being resolved but is a sad example of prejudice.

[DaveR]

"Whether you give/get flak or not (nice metaphor ) depends on whether you believe that the deaths of millions of people on behalf of a nation requires national recognition. It's not within itself jingoist.

If the consensus of opinion is that it is, then you can expect to get grief for breaking the taboo in the same way as you would for walking down the high street yelling swear words in people's faces."

What utter b@llocks. It's perfectly possible to believe in the sentiments behind Remembrance Sunday but choose not to wear a poppy.

"Only 'recently' must mean at least 40 years, because I used to wear one at school, and I didn't go to school on a Sunday"

And for completeness, this is b@llocks too. People have been wearing poppies for years but it is only recently that attention has been drawn to people not wearing them, with the implication that this is unacceptable. That was the point being made, which H either didn't understand or ignored.

[katie1997]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> Some Irish people (not all) also dislike the link

> with the British legion and their link with

> Unionist groups

Well in my opinion its a bloody shame that the British Legion needs to raise funds for the cause in the first place and that these people and their families don't get paid enough by the government. (As an aside, I have to say, perhaps naively, that I didn't realise the British Legion were linked with Unionist groups either).

Agree with Marmora Man on the white poppy. Also, it slightly irritates me that people start wearing red poppies waaaaaaay before Armistice Day too.

[BB100]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> It sounds a bit ridiculous BB100 - one school

> asking their pupils to honour remembrance day is

> not "rearing a nation of children that just obeys

> orders".

But at what point does it stop? Where do you draw the line? My nephew (whom this is about) came home today saying they were told that if they don't wear a poppy tomorrow they will get a detention.

> It is also ridiculous to assume that children can

> always decide for themselves what is right or

> wrong. Sometimes adults need to know where to draw

> boundaries.

Yes, and he has his parents to help him do that and they support his decision and views.

if you

> disagree don't send your kids to that school.

It didn't come in the perspectus!

There seems to be an implicit assumption here that if you don't wear a poppy you can't possibly 'respect and give recognition for the sacrifices and horrors of war' and that wearing one somehow magically makes you non-apathetic and responsible. Last year my son was stabbed with a poppy pin by a classmate so I don't see how children wearing them teaches them very much at all sometimes. Yes, I totally agree children need to be taught respect and manners and if you read my nephew's school report it says he is a perfect gentleman (yes those exact words). He is also a thoughtful and sensitive boy who has made a personal decision (not a whim) that I think ought to be respected too. Whatever happened to rights of freedom of thought and conscience? Young people are not all rioters you know, but the thought police seem to be out in force.

[silverfox]

Personally I've never seen a white poppy or anyone wearing one.

Do they exist in nature or is this a PR ruse?

All sounds a bit iffy to me.