Govt e-petition re school time hols

[curlykaren]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/49640

[EDmummy]

Really?! What a free-for-all that would be and a major disruption to our children and their peers. Yes, school holiday travel is expensive but this is NOT the solution. More effective lobbying of the holiday industry would be a much more sensible approach.

[Renata Hamvas]

Something to think about, no Southwark secondaries are under LA control (all VA or academies). Some primaries are VA, free schools/academies. They can set their own holidays. This means that parents who eg have children both in primary and secondary can have major mismatches in their children's holiday. This could mean eg to go away to visit family at Xmas, they may miss some school days for one child but not for another child at a different school. The system as it is only allows children to be removed with permission from the Head teacher, so it is discretionary permission and not an automatic right.

Renata

[Jessie]

There are more important things about the current education system I'd rather protest against - namely, Michael Gove.

[TE44]

I think this is a much bigger issue reflecting many problems in the education system. thousands of parents are fined every year, many for taking holidays during school time.

Here's a recent link http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/10177925.Swindon_parents_fined_tens_of_thousands_of_pounds_for_children_missing_school/

Renata, I'm sure I read recently the goverment is not going ahead with a proposal to automatically take fines from

benefits, can you confirm this please.

I do not believe fining parents is not the answer to truancy, there are many troubled families, with individual

complex problems, where fining and the threat of prison only adds to there problems.

It is a long time since I looked at private companies either running or partly running schools, in relation to truancy,

but there was a significant increase in the amount of parents being fined, eg serco group, whether this is still the

case I can't say. always difficult to get this info.

[bluesuperted]

Jessie, absolutely!

[ianr]

I've cobbled together (attached) what I believe the relevant regulation 7 looks like both before and after the change. Please let me know of any mistake.

Afaics, there is currently a provision that absence for holiday may be granted in "special circumstances", and that, unless there are "exceptional circumstances", such absence should not exceed ten days a year.

The change apparently removes any reference to holidays or to any limit, and specfies that absence can be granted only in exceptional circumstances.

It looks to me as if any skirmishing or litigation about this will have to deal with problems such as mismatch between holidays as mentioned by Renata, and whether they constitute an "exceptional circumstance". Presumably there may already be some kind of conventional understanding, or maybe even legal precedent, as to what "exceptional circumstances" might be in this context.

What is a "special school" as in para.5?

[ianr]

[Duplicate deleted.]

[Above post edited: R7Changes.txt now viewable]

[Saffron]

Agreed there are bigger issues in education. So why is the government even bothering with meddling with something so relatively trivial? Is it just so they can be seen as 'doing something' while actually avoiding tackling bigger issues efficiently?

Considering it from that p.o.v., I'll protest it on principle.

[Cora]

Signed....there may be more important things but it only takes a few minutes. Having 10 days flexible holiday dependent on your child attending regularly and on time the rest of the term is a mature way of giving families flexibility. You don't have to use it but I feel strongly that it is my right as a parent to decide whether a few absences, pre-arranged, are of benefit for my children and family.

[katgod]

Signed too. It was not chaos or a free for all or detrimental to my primary education in the 70s to have a week off school for our main family holiday. I don't like this flexibility being withdrawn. If my children are there for the rest of the year, don't take spurious sick days and are doing well at school I should be able to flex some time as was the case until relatively recently. The sensible majority are suffering because some families take the p@ss.

[number 2]

Does this include teachers?! That would be lovely to go off for a cheap holiday a couple of times a year!

[Pugwash]

In the 1990s, as part of my degree, I studied in Holland. There they divided the country up into 3 and had staggered holidays. This was more noticeable during the summer as obviously longer holidays. It was done, I was told,to prevent most of the country shutting down whilst families took their holidays.

For instance Zone 1 summer holiday may be from 16th June to 16th August

Zone 2 could be from 30th June - 28th August

Zone 3 from 14th July - 16th Septemer.

Each zone got their required number of weeks there was abviously some overlap but far more sensible that everyone jostling for end of July/August.

My friend is a lab technician in a Kent school and 2/3 years ago they trialled a 2 week whitsun break and a one week October half term break, and cut down the summer hols by one week. There was talk about cutting down the summer hols again and having 2 weeks whitsun and 2 weeks October half terms, but this did not happen. From what I gathered from my friend was that the teaching staff liked the 2 weeks whitsun break - I think the problem was the exam timetables.

Personally - I favour a 4 term academic year. Many Unis now are doing October - December, Jan - end of February, and April - June.

[minder]

Completely agree with you number 2! Can just imagine if the children turned up for class and the teacher had taken a few days/weeks extra holiday. How would the school cope? Of course they would have to bring in supply teachers which would have a detrimental effect on the whole class and other classes in the school.

katgod - I'm sure your holidays in the 70s were taken in the 6 week summer break?

[Nirish]

I am just about to start the school business in September, does this change affect independent schools.

[minder]

Depends really as independent schools have longer school terms than state schools, so you have a lot more leeway to take a holiday anyway, but still end up paying for those weeks and your holiday anyway, if you see what I mean.

[Nirish]

Yes I do thanks, didn't think of it like that. I guess I'll see how it goes once he starts, wouldn't want to pay for private education and then waste that money by taking him out for holidays.

[katgod]

No, my holidays were not taken in the 6 weeks break. That is precisely my point. It has until relatively recently been possible to take time off in term time. As provided for in the previous regulations, a 10 day flexibility has worked quite well until now. I see no reason to remove that option.

[canela]

I agree Katgod. I agree is not the most important issue in education at the moment perhaps, but agree that the government is meddling with this aspect so as to be seen to be doing something. until now it has been acceptable to occasionally take some time off in term-time. however, most people chose not to - and i very much doubt that anyone takes older kids out of school unless there is something like a family wedding or funeral overseas. it therefore does not descend into chaos. i remember most of my holidays being taken over the summer as a kid, apart from once when in primary school we went to visit family in Canada. was a once-in-a-lifetime journey and has stayed with me.

[curlykaren]

....

[bornagain]

Children being away for school term holidays will affect the learning of other children in the class and will be very disruptive for all. Topics/lessons missed, extra catchup work to be set. Teachers spending precious time on those who have been away rather than the rest of the class. More burden on already stretched teaching force.

Agree with EDmummy about lobbying the holiday industry!

[DaveR]

I looked at the link re fines in Swindon. At ?50 for an unauthorised term time holiday, it's a fee rather than a fine, and good value when you consider the difference in holiday costs. If this practice is extended and made more uniform there's an obvious risk that more, not fewer parents will take their kids out. That's why it's essential for schools to have a proper discretion to distinguish between cases of truancy (where I would usually understand the absence to be without the knowledge, or at least express consent, of the parent), parents who genuinely don't support their kids education, and parents who do but have a good reason for taking a term time holiday.

[Saffron]

bornagain Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Children being away for school term holidays will

> affect the learning of other children in the class

> and will be very disruptive for all.

> Topics/lessons missed, extra catchup work to be

> set. Teachers spending precious time on those who

> have been away rather than the rest of the class.

> More burden on already stretched teaching force.

>

Predicating the education of one child on the presence (or absence) of another is not a good education policy IMHO. The education of each child is an end in itself, not a means to an end. A better solution might be to reinforce teaching staff with better support, not to penalise parents for when and how they choose to educate their children. Holidays are learning experiences too. There's a lot more that could be done to improve education than penalising parents for holidays. In fact, I'd say the two are not related at all, as per DaveR's final point of distinguishing when children are actually truant.

[grabot]

I wonder what the child's perspective is. I remember not enjoying school for periods of time and liking it even less when over-indulged uber-children scooted off for glamorous trips to Tanzania etc, while I remained in class enduring the tedium of Geography classes, with little more than a week in a caravan during the summer holidays to look forward to. To add insult to injury we would often be exposed to a classroom level presentation of their experience when they returned. Still I guess it was good preparation for adult life in which the unglamorous world of knuckling down and getting on with things seemingly pales into insignificance relative to posting "interesting" things on Facebook.

[bornagain]

"Predicating the education of one child on the presence (or absence) of another is not a good education policy IMHO. "

Like it or not, we live in a community and actions of one parent can impact on children of others. We can all hope for more staffing and better support but in this current climate it's probably not going to happen.

Term time holidays are probably the preoccupation of the squeezed middle. The rich can afford holidays anytime and the poor don't get to go on holidays at all.