Southwark Streetspace dashboard

[Rockets]

Does anyone know if Southwark are planning to update the Streetspace dashboard - it hasn't been updated since September of last year and it would be very interesting to see if the increases in traffic volumes monitored by the council last time round was a trend or an anomaly?

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/streetspace/traffic-data-analysis

Edited May 14, 2023 by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

Think there is an LTN thread in the Lounge.

[Rockets]

Yes I know but that's why I am posting here because the Lounge doesn't get the eyeballs this section does and I am interested if anybody knows the answer (and I also know it really annoys those who have relentlessly lobbied the previous and current admins to kill any discussion on LTNs on the forum as it doesn't suit their own personal agendas!! ;-))

[Jenijenjen]

Just as moving any LTN discussion to the Lounge doesn’t suit yours. 

[Rockets]

That may well be the case but it is clear people are still interested in the subject (as much as some, like you, would love it to go away for ever).

 

The data from the dashboard is key and I was wondering if the council plans to update it again to show us whether the increases in traffic on some roads seen in the last couple of reports continued? 

 

They are certainly still monitoring in some places (although some of the ones on the streets they were monitoring have had them removed which suggests they believe the monitoring job is done).

 

From my wanderings around Dulwich I did notice that there is a definite pattern to how the council places the strips - if they want low numbers from a road (for example Dulwich Village) they put the monitoring strips close to a junction (see the placement close to Turney Road near light opposite the graveyard) but if they want high numbers (Burbage Road) they put the strips mid-street. it's quite pronounced and obvious when you see the positioning and is a real tell-all as to what they want the outcome of the monitoring to be.

[Jenijenjen]

There is a hardcore perhaps still interested but I’m guessing the majority of us are bored to tears with the subject. Continuing to post in this section about the subject is to the detriment of the whole EDF. 

[Rockets]

As I said earlier, there are some who have a vested interest in burying the subject and have repeatedly tried, much to the frustration of the previous admin due to the sometimes underhand tactics used, to stop any form of discussion about it on the board.

 

Maybe the most sensible advice, if it bores you to tears, is don't click on it and respond because all you're doing is not helping me answer the question and, ahem, keeping it at the top of the forum 😉 And if the "majority" aren't interested then surely the forums' posting function will run its natural course and any thread will drop very quickly.

The old thread survived multiple assassination attempts, was policed very well to keep within old admin guidelines, until very recently before finally being demoted to the lounge (on the basis, which I agree with, that it had become more loungey and not based on new info or facts).

 

Given it had, I believe, the highest number of posts and views for any thread ever on the forum I am not entirely sure how you can claim the subject was only of interest to a few or to the detriment to the EDF - that argument seems totally counter to the supporting stats in front of us!!

 

[Jenijenjen]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

And if the "majority" aren't interested then surely the forums' posting function will run its natural course and any thread will drop very quickly.

Oh Rockets I think we know who keeps posting on the subject to ensure it remains current

 

 

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

multiple assassination attempts

😂

 

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

Given it had, I believe, the highest number of posts and views for any thread ever on the forum I am not entirely sure how you can claim the subject was only of interest to a few or to the detriment to the EDF - that argument seems totally counter to the supporting stats in front of us!!

Here you go again quoting incomplete and unknown stats to prove your argument. The majority of the posts on the thread are made by a low number of repeat posters, the number of posts by these members is high and does not reflect the general membership.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Jenijenjen

[Rockets]

Jenx3 - as I said if you don't like it don't engage...no-one is forcing you to! if it bores or angers you that people dare to still talk about the LTNs then don't click on it.....it's not that difficult!

 

You were more than happy to post lots to try to defend the council's measures in the old thread so just because you have grown tired of doing so for something you are clearly a big supporter of (and no doubt directly benefit from) doesn't mean you should be judge and jury on whether others should discuss it or ask questions about it.

 

Anyway, I seem to remember you being a big advocate and defender of the council's data on the miracle East Dulwich Grove Centre evaporation so have you seen any further info from the council on the latest numbers, per my original question?

 

Oh P.S. it was one of the best performing threads in the main section of the forum with over 2,000 posts and 122k views and that was just the LTN Phase 3 thread there had been more threads before that too!

 

 

 

[heartblock]

I would like to know the amount of traffic on East Dulwich Grove, even if Jenjenjen does not. It's not an LTN thread it's a what is the traffic on my road measured by a Pneumatic Traffic Counter that cannot register any vehicle travelling less than 20km/per/hr thread. 

[exdulwicher]

3 hours ago, heartblock said:

I would like to know the amount of traffic on East Dulwich Grove, even if Jenjenjen does not. It's not an LTN thread it's a what is the traffic on my road measured by a Pneumatic Traffic Counter that cannot register any vehicle travelling less than 20km/per/hr thread. 

Can you conspiracy theorists please make up your mind what spurious shite you'll post about these counters cos I've seen the "it won't register vehicles below..." speeds variously quoted as 10kph, 10mph and 20kph.

None of which are right by the way but it'd be nice if you could agree some consistency. Thanks.

Also, if you could understand that there are in fact multiple ways you can measure traffic, it's not just counted off ONE pneumatic tube.

Thanks again.

[Rockets]

Ex  - no need to swear, family forum and all that.

 

It’s 10km/h isn’t it where the pneumatic recordings are not reliable - wasn’t that what the manufacturers of them stated in the Enfield council case and said they should not be placed close to junctions - which everyone knows is the tactic used by those wanting to deliberately under report traffic numbers - come on you can admit it, you’re amongst friends here….;-)

[Bic Basher]

3 hours ago, exdulwicher said:

Can you conspiracy theorists please make up your mind what spurious shite you'll post about these counters cos I've seen the "it won't register vehicles below..." speeds variously quoted as 10kph, 10mph and 20kph.

None of which are right by the way but it'd be nice if you could agree some consistency. Thanks.

Also, if you could understand that there are in fact multiple ways you can measure traffic, it's not just counted off ONE pneumatic tube.

Thanks again.

Enlighten us with how the counters actually work then?

[Del in ED]

I’d be interested in knowing how the LTNs have fared in terms of achieving their aims, as a resident negatively impacted by increased and speeding traffic since their introduction.

I suppose I am hoping that there is some reliable measure which shows they “worked“, which will make me feel the misery on my street at least has an upside for somewhere else in the area.
Otherwise it all seems totally in vain.

I only have 34yrs of being a resident to go by however, which may be no match for Council data. 

I’m not interested in seeing these attacks by people trying to close-down other posters though, regardless the justification. If somebody wants to attack me, could they please have the spine to do it by PM so that at least we can discuss it maturely.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Del in ED

[ab29]

On 11/05/2023 at 07:41, Del in ED said:

LTN achieved precisely nothing, apart form pushing even more cars onto the already busy roads and making traffics stationary, causing even more air pollution. 

And thanks Rockets for starting this thread. This is a serious issue negatively impacting thousands of residents. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by ab29

[sandyman]

i don't know if this kind of traffic is normal as it's not a journey I usually do, but it took me 30 minutes to get from Gails Dulwich Village to Lordship Lane via Townley Road earlier this evening - a journey that would have taken around 3 minutes before Calton Ave was closed.*

 

*I wouldn't dream of driving just to the shops that close, this was a final stop-off on a much longer trip.

[Bic Basher]

2 hours ago, sandyman said:

i don't know if this kind of traffic is normal as it's not a journey I usually do, but it took me 30 minutes to get from Gails Dulwich Village to Lordship Lane via Townley Road earlier this evening - a journey that would have taken around 3 minutes before Calton Ave was closed.*

 

*I wouldn't dream of driving just to the shops that close, this was a final stop-off on a much longer trip.

There was extra traffic on the roads today due to the rail strike.   

[heartblock]

I would like the dashboards updated and pollution levels measured on East Dulwich Grove as promised by Southwark Council, I think it's my right as a resident to have detail of congestion and pollution on my road. I do not believe that Pneumatic ATCs are accurate during congested traffic due to my own independent research of MetroCount 5000, but even so, even the flawed data is something. 

 

"In 2022, London’s rush hour was the slowest moving in the world, according to the latest Traffic Index. The average speed of motor vehicles in the city centrr during peak hours was just 14 kph (around 9 mph)".(Matthew Beedham Editor of Shift15.02.23)

"Vehicle speed measurement equipment performs poorly when measuring low speeds of around 10km/h" (Bouygues Energies & Services introduces Energy Vision, an innovative solution designed to help manufacturers manage energy and decarbonise their business).

ATC pneumatic counters are recommended to be used in 'are only designed for free flowing traffic" and "vehicles travelling very slowly might not be classified correctly" "either not included in count" or "placed in an unknown vehicle class" " Some councils have chosen to exclude all traffic travelling under 10Km/hr as in Enfield - a deliberate choice to change the default setting"- MetroCount - manufacturers of ATCs used by London Councils.

Enfield manual count compared to ATC count on boundary road in Enfield during period of congested traffic - 57% of traffic missed.

 

 

[first mate]

Some interesting stuff from Council Scrutiny session onEnvironment and Leisure. It gives detail on Council ambitions for CPZ, LTNs, hire bikes and stated mission to have hire bike hangars on the roads, necessary storage for when we all give up our cars, including e-cars.

Cllr King raises an interesting question as to whether emissionsmeasured are sometimes mixing woodburner with vehicle emissions.

 

[malumbu]

It does seem a bit daft to have another thread when this topic is on the Lounge. I don't buy the argument that people can't be assed to look at the Lounge.  It's a click away.  I'm not shutting down posting here Del, but in the 100s if not thousands of posts on the LTN (and CPZ and ULEZ) I doubt whether few have changed their minds.  I think there are probably more entrenched views amongst those who are angry with Southwark as opposed to more open minded tree huggers like me  😀  There was a nice invite for people to present the opposing argument which I, but only a few others did, join in.  Many, and I expect that includes Del, are simply cheesed off with the current impact.

Del, I'll send you a separate message with my general thoughts, it's not hardline or confrontational just the way I see the world.  Enjoy the sunshine everyone.

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by malumbu
punctuation

[heartblock]

It's a thread about the Dulwich Streetspace Data Dashboard and about traffic and pollution in East Dulwich right now - specifically asking for the dashboard to be updated and asking about how these are measured. It's not about LTNs despite the OP labelling it as such. 

[Rockets]

Good catch Heartblock - just changed it before the Lounge police got their way….;-)

[first mate]

On 13/05/2023 at 12:11, heartblock said:

I would like the dashboards updated and pollution levels measured on East Dulwich Grove as promised by Southwark Council, I think it's my right as a resident to have detail of congestion and pollution on my road. I do not believe that Pneumatic ATCs are accurate during congested traffic due to my own independent research of MetroCount 5000, but even so, even the flawed data is something. 

 

"In 2022, London’s rush hour was the slowest moving in the world, according to the latest Traffic Index. The average speed of motor vehicles in the city centrr during peak hours was just 14 kph (around 9 mph)".(Matthew Beedham Editor of Shift15.02.23)

"Vehicle speed measurement equipment performs poorly when measuring low speeds of around 10km/h" (Bouygues Energies & Services introduces Energy Vision, an innovative solution designed to help manufacturers manage energy and decarbonise their business).

ATC pneumatic counters are recommended to be used in 'are only designed for free flowing traffic" and "vehicles travelling very slowly might not be classified correctly" "either not included in count" or "placed in an unknown vehicle class" " Some councils have chosen to exclude all traffic travelling under 10Km/hr as in Enfield - a deliberate choice to change the default setting"- MetroCount - manufacturers of ATCs used by London Councils.

Enfield manual count compared to ATC count on boundary road in Enfield during period of congested traffic - 57% of traffic missed.

 

 

Heartblock, Some damning statistics there. Is this not something our councillor James McAsh can clarify, especially as he is now has the climate change portfolio?

[Rockets]

On 10/05/2023 at 20:16, exdulwicher said:

Can you conspiracy theorists please make up your mind what spurious shite you'll post about these counters cos I've seen the "it won't register vehicles below..." speeds variously quoted as 10kph, 10mph and 20kph.

None of which are right by the way but it'd be nice if you could agree some consistency. Thanks.

Also, if you could understand that there are in fact multiple ways you can measure traffic, it's not just counted off ONE pneumatic tube.

Thanks again.

I think it is interesting that Ex-, who works in the industry, stated that there are multiple ways to measure traffic - which I wonder is a narrative the industry is pushing in light of the controversy over the sub-10km/h limitation of the tubes that have been used, almost exclusively, to monitor traffic levels for Streetspace in Dulwich. As far as I am aware, and Ex- correct me if I am wrong, but pneumatic tubes are the only measurement device used for the dashboard numbers Southwark used to publish. And we know that many of the tubes mysteriously moved themselves closer to junctions when the measures went in (Lordship Lane South for example that started near the junction of Court Lane but then moved very close to Melford Road - which sits under slow moving traffic for large chunks of the day).

 

Is it a co-incidence that the dashboard numbers are not being updated and many of the tubes seem to have been removed completely after people became more aware of their sub 10km/h limitation? Are the council tryng to mitigate potential exposure?

Cllr McAsh hasn't been seen around these parts for a long time so maybe someone who lives in his ward can pose the question during a surgery or by email to get a response?

[exdulwicher]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

Is it a co-incidence that the dashboard numbers are not being updated and many of the tubes seem to have been removed completely after people became more aware of their sub 10km/h limitation? Are the council tryng to mitigate potential exposure?

I suspect you've actually hit on part of the issue.

Southwark (as with many boroughs in London and cities outside London as well) are moving a lot of their monitoring to Vivacity sensors. They're the camera type things with double lenses you can see on a lot of lampposts around the area and they're vastly more accurate, they can measure pedestrian, bike, car, truck, bus etc very accurately and also measure things like turning flow. They're largely immune to congestion issues and slow moving traffic, or at least can process this as part of the whole package (speed low, flow low, count low = congestion).

Tubes (while good for their intended purpose) can't do micromobiity (like scooters, walking etc) and it takes a lot of number crunching to get things like "if there are x thousand vehicles along [road], how many turn left and how many turn right at the end?" It can be done, it's just a lot of resource and it's not "real time" data. Some of the tube counters upload data regularly, others you have out go out and physically download it which presents a delay to data gathering and assessment.

The Vivacity sensors give a huge amount more data but they do require a verification time where you compare what the sensor is telling you with existing data, what you already know about the junction/road etc and modelling which should give you an idea of what to expect. So if you have historic tube counts saying there are 5000 vehicles per day on average and the sensor, during it's verification time, tells you there are 5500, that's probably right. If it's way off then you need to dig deeper to find the issue. However, that verification process is 6 weeks then you need some time to absorb what it's giving you and compare it to the (probably much more limited) data you had before.

Once the sensor is active, it'll give you real-time data - you open up a dashboard, select the sensor you want and it'll give you a real time graph of vehicle/pedestrian movements, download the previous day/week/month etc. But that's a huge amount of extra info to process and essentially a new baseline. Whereas before you had a couple of dozen tubes spread around the place, now you've got 50+ sensors giving live real-time data so it's a massive amount of extra info to process and a new "starting point" for data.

I'm making a big assumption here, mostly cos I'm working on a similar project outside London so I understand the issue with "we have this, rather limited, historic data and some modelling" with the new "wow, we can accurately count buses and trucks and cars and pedestrians and see which direction they're going and speed and density and flow!" along with the usual secondary question of "what do we DO with all this?!" which is kind of where we come in with processing help and support.

Fantastic system, takes some getting used to though. Also doesn't mean that what came before is "wrong"; this is just a far more detailed way to view it.

Edited May 15, 2023 by exdulwicher
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