Advice on buildings insurance please!

[Sue]

I have combined buildings and contents insurance, just come up for renewal and I have a fortnight to change (or not).

I have always thought that in 1996 and 2001 I had subsidence claims, therefore when looking for another quote I have always said so (and generally therefore been refused cover). My insurance company was also involved with another issue in 2009 which was potentially subsidence, however the claim was declined although they paid an arm and a leg for a brief visit by a surveyor.

I had a telephone conversation with my current insurer last year during which I was told that there were four categories of movement - subsidence/heave/landslip/ground movement and that both my claims (plus the one declined) had been categorised as "ground movement" rather than "subsidence".

Now this seems odd to me. The first one was cracking due to differential movement between the front bay and the rest of the house, due to different levels of foundation or something, and subsequently some sort of rod was put through the bay, and the second one was cracking due to leaking drains (or something to do with drains anyway), which was dealt with by dealing with the drains.

The person I spoke to last year said that it would depend on the underwriter whether the ground movement was classified as subsidence or not, but surely either it is or it isn't?

My problem now is, if I go online to get quotes, I will (probably) be asked if I have ever had subsidence or been refused insurance. So in the first case, can I now answer "no"??? And in the second case, if I answer "yes" the thing will go no further, but if I answer "no" on the basis that I was refused it because I unwittingly gave wrong information, would I be lying?

Also - I'm in a three bed terrace in SE22 and my renewal quote for combined buildings and contents insurance is ?732 with ?1000 excess for "subsidence, heave or landslip".

Does that sound reasonable? Because if so, I'm not sure I can be bothered faffing about getting other quotes :)

Though if I did I might be able to get my existing premium lowered (as I did with my car insurance last year) whilst staying with the same insurer.

[dbboy]

Have pm'd you

[mynamehere]

This is a sloppy copy but you can read the names and get a rough idea what WHICH? thinks! Notice there are 4 scores across the top: customer/ Building/ content/ and total. I split between 2 providers and pay ?550 total

Home insurance - Which? Recommended Providers

Insurer Which? Recommended Provider Customer

score Building policy score Contents policy score Total score

Ecclesiastical Which? Recommendation badge 79% 83% 76% 79%

NFU Mutuala Which? Recommendation badge 71% 79% 83% 76%

Nationwide BSb 69% 82% 82% 76%

Hiscoxc 62% 85% 89% 75%

Insure4retirementd Which? Recommendation badge 73% 79% 69% 73%

Marks & Spencer Banke 61% 81% 86% 72%

John Lewis Insurancef Which? Recommendation badge 70% 76% 72% 72%

Age UK Which? Recommendation badge 71% 72% 72% 72%

RIASg 68% 77% 71% 71%

NatWest 65% 79% 73% 70%

LV= 65% 72% 74% 69%

Barclays 62% 79% 72% 69%

Aviva 63% 77% 71% 68%

Tesco Bank 64% 74% 71% 68%

Castle Coverdh 68% 70% 66% 68%

Royal Bank of Scotland 60% 79% 73% 68%

Sagah 65% 69% 68% 67%

Sainsbury's Banki 64% 72% 66% 67%

Direct Line 62% 70% 69% 66%

The Co-operative Insurance 65% 65% 68% 66%

AA Insurance Servicesd 57% 70% 74% 64%

Prudential 62% 67% 66% 64%

Bank of Scotlandd 61% 64% 71% 64%

Axa Insurance 60% 64% 69% 63%

Halifaxd 59% 64% 71% 63%

Privilege 55% 72% 70% 63%

More Than 61% 68% 62% 63%

Post Office 62% 65% 62% 63%

Admiral 61% 65% 62% 62%

esure 55% 70% 60% 62%

Churchill 55% 60% 64% 61%

Lloyds Bankdj 55% 64% 71% 61%

Legal & General 55% 67% 67% 61%

Bradford and Bingley 60% 62% 60% 60%

Sheilas' Wheels 53% 73% 62% 60%

HSBC 52% 69% 66% 60%

Endsleigh Insurance Servicesd 59% 59% 61% 59%

Zurich 54% 66% 61% 59%

Santander 56% 63% 58% 58%

Swiftcover 53% 61% 63% 58%

Allianz Insurance 49% 59% 65% 55%

Budget Insurance Servicesd 45% 63% 63% 54%

Average 61% 70% 69% 66%

Table notes

Customer score data based on a survey of 3,092 respondents from the general public telling us about their home insurance provider in November 2013. Policy scores are based on the provider's standard policy. Building and Contents policy score is our assessment of the quality of standard policies from each of the providers, comparing 39 and 54 categories from each policy type respectively to come out with each overall score. Providers must receive a minimum sample size of 30 respondents to generate a customer score and inclusion in the table. Total score is made up of 50% of the Customer score and 25% each of Building and Contents policy scores.

Policies only available via direct sales forces and local agents and may not cover all risks or postcodes (particularly in major cities). Check on 0800 3164661.

Nationwide also have a Essentials policy which has a 72% building score, 68% contents policy score

Refers to the 505 home and contents policy and the high-value policy

Provider chooses from a panel of insurers

Policy score for M&S Premier Cover: 90% building score, 89% contents policy score

Policy score based on John Lewis Plus Policy

Since August 2013, RIAS's home insurance policies are fully owned and underwritten by Ageas

Customers must be over 50

Policy score for Premier Cover: 81% building score, 80% contents policy score

Policy score shown is for Home Options which is available online. The same policy is also available branded as TSB

More on this...

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Thinking about buildings insurance? Take a look at our guide

Find out which providers we rated best for customer satisfaction

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Customer satisfaction

[Sue]

Thanks MyNameHere, I already have the Which report, and there's a lot of info on the MoneySavingExpert website as well.

It is the subsidence/ground movement distinction (or otherwise) which I was keen to get people's views (or more hopefully expertise) on.

I think I probably have to phone a few brokers for advice rather than trying to get quotes online. it's just a hassle when these days you don't expect to have to do that!

[intexasatthe moment]

Any help ?

"Subsidence and Other Cracks

Thu, 29/03/2012 - 22:14 -- Anonymous

Since the early 1970's, building insurance policies have included 'damage caused by subsidence, heave or landslip' or similar wording.

Subsidence, heave and landslip all involve foundation movement, but so does settlement. Typical insurance policy definitions are :-

Subsidence:

The downward movement of the ground (upon which the building is founded) for reasons unconnected to the loading of the ground from the building

Settlement:

The downward movement of the ground upon which the building is constructed due to the inability of the ground to satisfactorily support the load of the building

Heave:

The expansion of the ground (beneath a building) for reasons unconnected to the existence of the building

Landslip:

Downward movement of sloping ground due to its self weight or imposed loading exceeding the shearing capacity of the ground

So subsidence is caused by some factor or other affecting the soil under the foundations.

These include:

Drying out and shrinkage of cohesive (clay) soils

Softening of cohesive soils by leaking drains

Erosion of sandy soils by leaking drains

Collapse of mine workings or natural cavities

If a building is subsiding uniformly, and by moderate amounts, there may not be much of a concern. In fact it probably will not be noticed. The problem is that subsidence usually occurs to only one part of the building, or more severely to one part than the rest. It is this differential subsidence which damages buildings, mainly by cracking and pulling apart the structure. "

[Sue]

Thanks for that, inTexas, but the issue is that my present insurance company told me that because "subsidence" was different to "ground movement" because they were specified separately, and that my claims were apparently noted down in their records as "ground movement", that I could truthfully say that I had never had "subsidence".

I'm not convinced that this is the case, and I don't want to end up in a situation where I have a claim refused because of non-disclosure.

I should have got something in writing from them, and stupidly I didn't. I just have the notes from my phone conversation with them. I guess I can in time for next year though .....

[Sue]

Oh well, it seems like I am stuck with my present insurer - unless I want to pay for an up-to-date structural engineer's report to say there is no further ongoing movement.

But on the bright side it seems that my present premium is reasonable, so not worth the hassle or expense of getting a report, I think.

Thanks to everybody who offered advice!

[Sue]

Amazing good news!

I realise I am the only one interested :)) but hey I have to share ....

After several long conversations yesterday and today with my existing insurer (the person concerned was extremely helpful and went well beyond the call of duty), and apparently a referral to the Chief Executive, I have been issued with a new policy as "new business" with the present underwriter, with better cover, and for ?446 instead of ?732 :)

Which normally I wouldn't have been eligible for because of what they are now saying was a "subsidence" claim in 2001.

So polite persistence pays off, I guess.

Having kept a note of the conversation I had with them last year, and the person's name, helped I think.

So I have saved nearly ?300 a year. Hooray! Must resist the temptation to rush out and buy something :))

[*Bob*]

Just reminded me ours is up for renewal. Cue the standard 'I'm leaving' call, followed by the standard 'let me talk to my boss', followed by the standard 2 minutes on hold - followed by the magical ?150 discount.

These places are just like everywhere else. If you don't ask, you don't get.

[Sue]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> These places are just like everywhere else. If you

> don't ask, you don't get.

xxxxxx

My case was somewhat different.

They knew I couldn't get insurance elsewhere because of the history of "subsidence", albeit from 13 years ago.

So they had me over a barrel and didn't in the least have to reduce my premium. In fact I wouldn't have been surprised if it had been increased, and I would have had no option but to pay it .......

Or else be uninsured, which frankly would not be a great plan :)

[*Bob*]

We had a subs claim just a few years back with the same insurer..

[worldwiser]

We pay around 350 for buildings/contents for a 3 bed terrace in ED. Includes AD for items outside the home. Axa via British Gas quoted by comparethemarket.com

[Sue]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We had a subs claim just a few years back with the

> same insurer..

Xxxxxxxxx

So how come you are able to get quotes from other insurers to be able to say you are leaving? Most places won't touch anywhere with past subsidence claim with a bargepole

so far as I

can see :(

Sorry for odd formatting am on phone!

[*Bob*]

Well there are subsidence claims.. and then there are subsidence claims and admittedly ours wasn't a major claim. But even so - armed with technical reports, sign-off certificates.. all the ammo available, there would be other options out there. There's always somebody willing to undercut someone else to get your money.

Insurers don't give you money off because you're a nice person and what the hell, they're in a good mood. They give you money off because they know there's a better offer somewhere else - and that if you were prepared to go all out and look for it - it would lead to then losing your business. They bank on you either not being bothered looking for it - or just not finding it for one reason or another.

Moreover, if you've been with the same insurer for years, they've probably crept your premiums up on the sly over time. Familiarity - after all - breeds contempt. You called them on it and lo and behold they 'suddenly discovered' a discount which was available.

It's like buying a car and the salesman going through the charade of 'talking to his boss to see what he can do'.

[DaveR]

It's also surprising how different the pricing models are between different insurers for the same cover, plus insurers don't always want your business and will sometimes give you a very high price to make you go elsewhere. Because there are so many houses that have suffered subsidence in the past there are plenty of insurers who will take on the business, but you are unlikely to be able to find them from comparison sites, so you need to do old fashioned ringing around.

[Sue]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Because there are

> so many houses that have suffered subsidence in

> the past there are plenty of insurers who will

> take on the business, but you are unlikely to be

> able to find them from comparison sites, so you

> need to do old fashioned ringing around.

xxxxxx

Yeh that's what I had been doing.

Anyway, I'm quite happy having almost halved what I was paying, without having had to pay for an up-to-date survey.

A sign-off from 2001 would not cut any ice with any underwriter, I suspect. It certainly didn't impress any of the people I talked to earlier in the week. I've kept full records of all the technical reports etc - but it was thirteen years ago :)

[welshchap]

Can someone tell me who are the best insurers for this area please? I might move into the area and would like a quote!!!