peak oil/transition initatives

[louisiana]

Anyone here interested in peak oil issue and/or transition initiatives?

[HonaloochieB]

Might be.

[HonaloochieB]

Is it a sex thing?

[ruffers]

I liked their first album

[David Mc]

I think it's this:

http://www.transitiontowns.org/

[PeckhamRose]

Isn't this like what PeckhamPower are doing?

Not exactly a catchy title, is it!

louisiana Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyone here interested in peak oil issue and/or

> transition initiatives?

[mockney piers]

"I liked [Peak Oil Issue's] first album"

I thought Umbrage Wells was a bit meh if you ask me, Transition Issues really rocks!!

[Jeremy]

I disagree, the original (classic) lineup cannot be beaten.

Guitar - Comrade Galhammer

Bass and Embroidery - Our Dear Leader

Drums - The Lonely Dissident

[PeckhamRose]

So louisiana, what were you expecting us to reply with.

Did you think we all knew what you were on about?

Do some splainin'!

[macroban]

I'm unlikely to be around in 2021 to see East Dulwich after peak oil. It may be like going back to the 1950s.

[????]

I suspect oil reserves will last a bit longer now the global economy is grinding to a halt and going back to the 1800s

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I more than happy to have a pony and trap. Would anyone like to finance me in this ethical venture?

[mockney piers]

I'm not sure it'll be such a disaster, and may be the spur we need to address the far more important issues regards global warming.

Once oil becomes too expensive to waste on such things as petrol and the cost of hydrogen production is parity or cheaper then people will switch to that (it's already pretty widespread in Argentina for instance) killing two birds with one stone.

Oil burning power stations will be no longer economically viable either.

We will of course never enjoy the abundance of cheap goods that we enjoy today, but then something of a reality check and paying the real opportunity costs of our goods is something we need if we really are to save the world, and there won't be any win win choices, just more expensive ones.

The 50-70 year period from the sixties to whenever the new reality kicks in really will be a time of 'you've never had it so good', and that's before we get into the water wars and hegemonic struggles for resources to come. But we should come out of it intact. And hell, what's wrong with saving up for stuff, christmas clubs and paying the cost of a decent wage for that chap down the road who makes your t-shirt?

It might even be a better world!! *doesn't hold breath*

[RosieH]

Wise words MP

[mockney piers]

Of course people won't use energy efficiency light bulbs because they poke out the top of a lampshade/take a bit to brighten/aren't subsidised by the government, so this world is of course doomed!!!!

;-)

[Keef]

Why Piers, I had no idea you were so green sir!

My only gripe with said light bulbs is that they're no good for a lot of (usually elderly) visually impaired people, for whom good lighting is very important. If they get up in the night for the loo or something, these bulbs are useless because they do take a good few minutes to brighten up, by which time they've fallen down the stairs!

[mockney piers]

I use only energy efficient light bulbs.

In a thousand years it will have saved all the energy I burnt powering my amp, xbox a plasma screen tv!!

I'm passionate about green issues but I'm also completely despondent about mankind's ability to do the anyhing about it; taken as a whole we're a spectacularly selfish bunch. We're so driven by economic growth and consumerism, that mere things like not destroying the environment pales.

Mind you world's been through far worse than we're able to throw at it and survived. Whether we do is an entirely different matter!! As the mash said "Earth (5 billion) was quoted as saying "What's all this earth under threat stuff all about, I'm going to be fine thank you very much"" (paraphrase)

[Brendan]

Hey who do you think you?re calling selfish? I couldn?t give a toss about economic growth and consumerism. What I care about is me.

[Jeremy]

>Once oil becomes too expensive to waste on such things as petrol and the cost of hydrogen production is parity or cheaper then people will switch to that

But obviously large amounts of energy will be needed for the hydrogen production, and unless we all cut down our consumption dramatically, renewable sources aren't going to cut it - and will be more expensive than nuclear. So we have a whole new set of problems, ie how to dispose of all the nuclear by-product. If we're not careful it will all lead to another cycle of self destruction!

[Brendan]

Right I would just like to declare that I am now an expert on this because I read the wikipedia article on my lunch break.

Apparently the easiest way to get hydrogen at the moment is from Hydrocarbons which are found as natural gas which is itself a fossil fuel. The extraction process separates the hydrogen atoms from the carbon atoms in a combustion like process the by-product of which is CO2.

So you are still relying on fossil fuels and you are still producing CO2 although probably not as much over all so it will still be a bit better.

What they need to do is find an easy way to get the H out of H2O and then when the H is burnt up in fuel cells it just goes back to H2O again. Which sounds a bit like perpetual motion, something my science master told me was impossible.

Something else I learnt from school science is that hydrogen is one of the most explosive elements. So surely if you have a tank of the stuff in your car and you have a crash you will blow up a few city blocks.

[mockney piers]

I don't really have any of the answers, and I sure as hell never said any of it would be easy, and that's rather the point of peak oil; that once plentiful and cheap ceases then we have the motivation to do something about it.

Of course that's too bloody late. The HUGE profits from the energy companies are basically being squandered. Energy rich countries are diversifying, quite right too, but are moving as far as I can see into industry and commerce, of which there'll be very little if we don't have energy alternatives.

So yes the transition issues as it were are huge, but something has to be done.

Governments shouldn't be subsidising us buying different light-bulbs they should be ploughing money into scientific research, renewable energy sources and mandating the likes of BP to be doing more to find replacement, carbon neutral energy sources.

I gather the Earth is basically a huge engine, that must be harnessable surely, the Icelandics manage it, though they are a bit more volcanic than us. It can't really be much more difficult than building hundreds of huge platforms in middle of the ocean to suck black goop out from way under the ground can it?!?

[SeanMacGabhann]

This has long been a bugbear of mine and I'm pretty much on the same page as Mockney - especially when he says

"I gather the Earth is basically a huge engine, that must be harnessable surely, the Icelandics manage it, though they are a bit more volcanic than us. It can't really be much more difficult than building hundreds of huge platforms in middle of the ocean to suck black goop out from way under the ground can it?!?"

But whilst governments will ultimately be responsible for delivering the momentum, incentives and cash, we as a society have to stop voting the buggers out everytime they try and persuade us to ease off a little whilst we buy some breathing space in the research area. We have to stop bleating everytime someone tries to persuade us out of cars and into public transport (yes, even if the public transport isn't great). Ditto complaining about disappearing cheap flights and or tax on same ("I bought a flight for a fiver and do you know what? I had to pay 10 times that in tax!!!")

Any parent with a tight budget and children knows that the orange squash (or whatever) is the first to be consumed from the weekly shop and then there are tears until the supply is replenished next week. When it comes to the environment we appear to be the children, there are no parents and there is no next week... so the parental advice "save some for later" is one we should heed sooner rather than later. But I suspect most people will just adopt the easily word mantle of "the government are just taxing us.. or they will waste the money.. .or.... "etc etc. Anything but face up to the orange squash running out

[mockney piers]

"Which sounds a bit like perpetual motion"

Not really because it takes more energy to separate it, leave alone transport, it to it's destination than it produces.

I'd be interested how much energy is expended to get every litre of petrol into a car engine in Biggleswade incidentally.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Doctor Sean McGabhan - Eremitus Professor of Orange Squash Economics, Robinsons Barley University, Florida

How much energy does it take to put said orange squash into an 8 year old in Biggleswade?

[SeanMacGabhann]

less that in does to take the bottle off him when it's running out, Dr Paleantologist of Holborn