Pro life?

[Chick]

So the pro life, anti abortion, pro death penalty, pro war Christians in Kansas have murdered a doctor, how does that square?

[silverfox]

Contentious stuff.

As I understand it one person (not necessarily christian and certainly not christians - plural) shot him.

Your point is?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Abortion-Doctor-George-Tiller-Is-Shot-Dead-Outside-His-Church-In-Wichita-Kansas/Article/200905415292298?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15292298_Abortion_Doctor_George_Tiller_Is_Shot_Dead_Outside_His_Church_In_Wichita%2C_Kansas

[RosieH]

Widespread (legal) availability of guns is a bad thing with extremist mentalists around.

[louisiana]

Or perhaps 'Widespread (legal) availability of guns is a bad thing with crazy Christians around.'

[SimonM]

They will soon catch the murderer with such a razor-sharp cop as this on the job:-

'Wichita police captain Brent Allred said: "It's an unfortunate incident to happen on a Sunday morning.

"These things should not occur at any time."'

Right....

[Keef]

Widespread (legal) availability of guns is a bad thing with extremist mentalists around

Or perhaps 'Widespread (legal) availability of guns is a bad thing with crazy Christians around.'

Er, not quite sure what the point is here. I'm pretty sure that the extemist mentalists Rosie was talking about, are in fact the Crazy Christians, as you put it. ;-)

Unless Rosie's post sid something different before she edited it.

[RosieH]

Nah just blackberrying with extremely small type and spelt mentalists wrong.

I don't think all Christians are mental, and I most certainly don't think they're all extremists (which frankly someone prepared to murder for their religious / ethical beliefs clearly is).

[Keef]

I didn't want to put words in to Louisiana's mouth, but I did read it as a bit of an unnecessary dig at christians in general.

To be honest, I think this thread as a whole is rather unnecessary. I thought it was going to be a debate, and expected loads of people getting really wound up about a very emotive subject. No such luck.

[louisiana]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I didn't want to put words in to Louisiana's

> mouth, but I did read it as a bit of an

> unnecessary dig at christians in general.

Just calling a spade a spade. A mentalist is, AFAIK, a form of magician, which seems either too broad a description or inappropriate for these followers of death. Unnecessary, you say? Well I've yet to hear of such a killing claimed in the name of either atheists or agnostics.

>

> To be honest, I think this thread as a whole is

> rather unnecessary. I thought it was going to be a

> debate, and expected loads of people getting

> really wound up about a very emotive subject. No

> such luck.

Indeed. Perhaps a debate about how the expression 'pro life' has been hijacked by some clearly in favour of death. Or how the expressions 'christian' and 'screw loose' are perhaps not as distant from each other as some might believe.

[blah]

nutters

Who can remember when St John & Clements church neded a measly 1/4 Mill to repair its steeple.

It eventually got it - pretty impressive seeing as the CoE has billions tucked away in its funds that is didnt want to delve into . Still, better than doing something useful with the cash - like helping people

organised and disorganised religion is Fail

[Keef]

Unnecessary, you say? Well I've yet to hear of such a killing claimed in the name of either atheists or agnostics.

Couldn't agree more, plenty of nasty things have been done in the name of one God or another, and these people are nut cases. However, trying to paint religious people as a whole in that way is just ludicrous, being that most of them preach peace.

I'm also pretty sure that there are some nasty agnostics out there, being agnostic or atheist certainly doesn't make someone a better, or indeed worse person, although the superiority you hear from a lot of them would certainly suggest it did.

[mockney piers]

As far as I can work out much of the so called Christian right, are basically just right wingers and OT fundamentalists who have fallen back on the bible to support narrow minded bigotry. It's deeply rooted in the culture of slave ownership and frontier mentality.

It'd be nice to think tyt 300 years post enlightenment and 150 years post slavery, not to mention a good century or so post frontier that people might have moblved on, but some people just don't want to and if ancient texts can justify the then it's a nicely circular logic.

Also as far as I can see there's not great deal of Christianity in many of these US Christian right movements with a great deal more OT help fee and brimstne as they pick and choose the bits they like. I dnt see many of them avoiding lobster as they preach stoning gays and are happy enough with an eye for an eye over love thy neighbour (classic comedy).

All of which to basically say 'armed nutter in killing person shock' shock!

[RosieH]

Aha, the new-fangled meaning of mentalist (as in Derren Brown) - to me it will always mean someone not of sound mind - I wasn't suggesting for a second that an armed and dangerous Paul Daniels is a bad thing. Although, thinking about it...

Keef, I hear your pain, but I'd question what is there to debate? Does it make me furious? Yes. Does it make anyone-for whom-I-would-have-an-ounce-of-respect furious? I should bloody well hope so.

That pro-life is a hideous oxymoron with these people hardly needs saying, but I think Mockney summed it up nicely. The fact is that they are looking for something to hate and something to rail against and I firmly believe that it's got f*ck all to do with religion - the bible's just an easy excuse to justify their criminal behaviour.

If they were really Christian, then I think the whole he who is without sin casting the first stone thing might hold some sway. It doesn't seem to.

By and large you won't find me coming out in favour of eugenics, but in this instance I'm beginning to see its appeal.

[Keef]

a good century or so post frontier

Funnily enough, Mrs Keef and I watched "There will be blood"* the other night (set between 1898, and about 1920), and were saying that it's no wonder there are some total loons out there, when churches were started out in the middle of nowhere, with no rules, or noone keeping an eye on them.

If you have someone with a big enough personality, s/he can get people to follow them, and before you know it, you end up with a Westboro Baptist Church!

* good, if slightly odd film by the way

[Keef]

Oh, and regarding "mentalist", I'm with Rosie, Mentalist means fruit loop!

[bigbadwolf]

I thought Daniel Day-Lewis's performance in 'There will be blood' was breath taking and he thoroughly deserved his Oscar. Sorry to butt in but it had to be said.

[mockney piers]

Pro life is a by product of American politics. Negative language generally plays very badly in opinion forming, it plays against the mythology of the American dream and of indi individualism and so-called small government.

Therfore lobby groups and policies must be for something, hence they are not anti abortion they are pro life. The fact that a huge chunk of the pro lifers are pro death penalty is lost irony.

Mind you I know catholic liberal Americans who are a bit torn, inclined towards a wokans right to choose but against abortion. It was things like this that made bush leverage abortion and stem cell research to squeeze a few more votes and divide the opposition. Thankfully fucking up the entire country, stretching the army to breaking poi t and squandering all goodwill across the rest of the world helped to consolidate the opposition vote pro life of not.

[Bizzy]

Just to clarify:

If a so called Christian uses the Bible as an easy excuse to commit any wrongdoing; simply put, they are not Christian as they've shown a complete disregard for Christian morals / values / teachings. It's quite easy to take this particular example at face value, one should notice that the perpetrators of the crime are obviously crazy or they have forgotten the true morals of their faith. This applies to all forms of hatred, prejudice etc. justified in the name religion.

[woofmarkthedog]

Errr they're AMERICANS & the rest is an add on.....

Shoot first "It's in the consti.....bla bla " ....answer your own questions later.

Same sh*t different day

W**F

[mockney piers]

Easy enough assertion to make in the light of this incident bizzy. But who gets to decide who and what is a true Christian.

The top minds if Europe have been fathoming that out for the best part of fifteen hundred years until the renaissance/refrmation prised the churchs grip off all intellectual activity, and allowed us to ponder something slightly more useful.

And what did they give us? Holy wars (with full theological backing), indulgences, the inquisition...nice. Then the reformers going back to bailsics gave us the godly, witch hunters, anabaptists spurning progress, fundamentalism, revolutionary preachers and catholic lynchings!

Seems to me anyone professing true faith in history has been trouble, what are you proposing? ;)

[????]

maybe....Mockney maybe, BUT...playing Devil's Advocate...my favourite play

1) Ecllastical(sp?) patronage was a key enabler of the Renaissance

2) The reformation and especially the more extreme elements of Protestantism were a fundamental driver in the Scientific Revoultion of the 17th/18th Century - to advance oneself (intellectually and materially) was God's will (protestant ethic innit)

3) And secular 'rationalism' - or the 20th century version of it - left us with Stalin, Hitler, Mao TseTung and Pol Pot

Just notice you do nod to point 2) in your post

[bigbadwolf]

Damn, I was going to say that Quids.

[mockney piers]

Fair points though if I was being picky I'd say that the renaissance was an evolutionary process from the 13th century onwards entirely driven from within the church (cos that's where the clever people were) and were it not for the supression by the ecclesiastical authorities (they damn near killed francis of assissi for goodness sake) the 15th century flourishing of culture and learning may have blossomed much earlier.

And isn't point three a bit like saying democracy gave us the bloodthirsty suppressions of Algerian and Vietnamese self determination?

I'd say the philosophies of Stalin Hitler and pol pot were much more deeply rooted in religious eschatology than they were the result of a secular rationalism.

But I get where you're coming from.

[????]

...us eastenders think a like wolfie me old china

[bigbadwolf]

I was an eastender Quids but that ceased to be the case when I was carried south when I was two. I've always considered my self a step child of Lewisham. Sorry.