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messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by singalto October 10, 06:22PM

This doesn’t seem to be a good time to close roads as people go back to the work place but are discouraged from using public transport.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets October 10, 07:01PM

dulwichfolk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Around 1220 ambulance with blue lights flashing
> today going down grove vale indicates right to go
> down Melbourne grove, can’t so continues to drive
> still indicating right in the end has to go via
> lordship lane traffic to eventually get to a house
> on east dulwich grove near green dale.
>
> This is the real life affect of these closures.

"Collateral damage" or "Not due to the closures". I wonder which one the pro-closure lobby will categorise this as?

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by macutd October 11, 08:38AM

East Dulwich Grove and Grove Vale are now dangerous for cyclists (Me)
There is too much traffic on these roads
please re open the side roads to take the pressure off

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl October 12, 10:57AM

macutd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> East Dulwich Grove and Grove Vale are now
> dangerous for cyclists (Me)
> There is too much traffic on these roads
> please re open the side roads to take the pressure
> off


Totally agree, poor thinking at worst time of year, when traffic levels go up every year in response to weather, to then try and squeeze all onto same roads, and to hope you will get some evaporation.

If you do get some people to change behaviour, and some people have which is terrific, but if what James Barber says is true, if 50% of the traffic is coming through the area, they won't be replacing those journeys with bicycles or walking as they are longer journeys maybe with multiple stops so in reality you just have worst congestion. All the plans of this ilk that do work involve proper planning, investment, consultation with everyone and a decent run up.

I think you can also change peoples behaviour by upping fuel duties and using the extra income to build the alternative cleaner transport links. Make the alternatives far more attractive than the car. Then you don't need to close roads and cross fingers.

There was a massive queue of traffic from GG round-about to the GG playground on Saturday around 12 noon, does anyone know why? Any accidents?

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets October 12, 10:59AM

It's the displacement tsunami in full effect....remember Waltham Forest LTN seems to have caused a 28% increase in traffic on roads 3.1 miles way....

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by JohnL October 12, 11:46AM

Every year of fuel duty freeze means something else has to give because of the way budgets are calculated.

"The issue is that the Office for Budget Responsibility, which provides independent forecasts for the government, assumes that fuel duty will rise by inflation every year – despite all evidence to the contrary."

[www.theguardian.com]

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roadsattachment
Posted by ED - NAGAIUTB October 12, 08:26PM

This (see attached) is the way Cllr Peter John OBE of Southwark treats his constituents and their businesses.

Attachments: twitter_EkJpvriWoAYYT-z.jpg (95.8KB)  
messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roadsattachment
Posted by northbank October 13, 12:34PM

dougiefreeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nigello Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Dougie — of course it’s a fact. It’s self
> evident
> > they’ve chosen to drive. Nobody forced them.
> They
> > chose. The alternatives may be less convenient
> but
> > they still chose to do it.
> >
> > It’s really simple — if we want less traffic
> then
> > everyone must reduce their use of motor
> vehicles.
> > People don’t like this fact so they invent
> > distractions and whatabouts.
> >
> > Drive less and use fewer services that use
> motor
> > vehicles and traffic will reduce... Give it a
> go!
>
> Ahh I think I get it now, you think it’s a fact
> because you say so?
>
> Just in case there was any misunderstanding
> before, I was asking you to provide your evidence
> / source for your claim that the bad traffic was
> made up of people who’d made a ‘short journey’. I
> was wondering how on earth you could possibly know
> that. We’re you knocking on windows asking them
> how far they’d come? Or do you have access to some
> data that the rest of us don’t?

"A little over a third (35 per cent) of all car trips are shorter than 2 km, just under a third (32 per Cent) are between 2 and 5km and the remaining third are longer than 5km"

Attachments: technical-note-14-who-travels-by-car-in-london.pdf (200KB)  
messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets October 13, 01:38PM

So let's look at this pragmatically.

35% of all car trips are shorter than 2km.
- You can certainly eliminate some of these but you can't eliminate them all.
32% are between 2km and 5km.
- Much harder to eliminate these
30+% are over 5km.
- Much much harder to eliminate these

So the rational discussion you have to have is can you eliminate enough of the car journeys so that the remainder do not cause more problems finding other routes? Even if you managed to eliminate 30% of all car journeys (and I don't think anyone from the pro-lobby can show any closures that have done anything close to this) you are still left with a significant displacement problem.

Every LTN causes a displacement tsunami - that much is clear - the question is 1) can you eliminate enough cars to prevent a massively negatively impact or 2) can the surrounding roads absorb the displacement? On both counts in Dulwich the current evidence suggests overwhelmingly the answer is no.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Dulwichgirl82 October 13, 01:49PM

[twitter.com]
I think the view of the nursery in east dulwich grove is both telling and sad.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets October 13, 01:57PM

People are fighting back against the one-sided view of the world being projected by the pro-closure lobby.

Everything is not as rosy as they would like the world to believe........

I am seeing more and more people responding to their tweets exposing what is really happening...it seems they have a policy of only responding and engaging with their supporters though....

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Penguin68 October 13, 02:22PM

35% of all car trips are shorter than 2km....

You have to be a bit careful about these figures. If you set off on a long trip, stop at a garage locally for petrol, and then continue, that's 2 trips - once under 2km, and one longer. It depends very much on how they are being both recorded and reported. Broadly (and it makes sense) the figures give a reasonable view - mostly (60% of the time) you travel within around 5kms of your starting place before returning - though who you're with, what you are carrying and the purpose of your journey are ignored. As is the state of the weather and the time (you're more likely to take a car if you plan some part of your journey out or return when public transport you could use isn't running).

And if you're running a relatively (or completely) 'clean' vehicle - electric or hydrogen (eventually) the number and length of your trips will be completely irrelevant when it comes to issues of pollution. Which is the future that many people are looking to - but if the cycling brigade get their way, and we are forced out of having cars, the necessary economies of scale for an electric or hydrogen future will be lost. If people don't or can't, buy sufficient numbers of the cars, they will be generally unaffordable - so the only motorists left will be the wealthy. Considering the socialist (indeed Marxist) background of so many of the campaigners surely an unintended consequence?

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Abe_froeman October 13, 03:39PM

It's also wrong to say that just because a journey is less than 5km it should not be made by car. Just today someone on here has asked how to recycle a large volume of cardboard. They have three options - 1) go by car to the recelying centre 4km away 2) put what they can in their domestic recycling and burn the rest on a bonfire 3) pay the council £16 to collect it.

The least attractive is the most expensive but the council have put us in this position.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Rockets October 13, 04:01PM

Therein lies the problem for those who say "well all these journeys can be done by foot or bike". They can't - it's not binary - there are nuances - just because a journey is below 2km doesn't mean it can magically but done out of a car (BTW why does TFL use KMs?). Granted some of them can but I have seen zero evidence to suggest that enough people are able to make the switch to not cause terrible displacement issues elsewhere.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by malumbu October 13, 05:26PM

We should all use KM, trouble is we are a backward nation, not as backward as the US. Backward is of course a relative term and used to stress the point.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Spartacus October 13, 05:29PM

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We should all use KM, trouble is we are a backward
> nation, not as backward as the US. Backward is of
> course a relative term and used to stress the
> point.

Boy
Imagine the cost of replacing every road sign in the UK from miles to km

Still not to worry, we're getting pounds shillings and pence back soon 🤔

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl October 13, 05:41PM

Dulwichgirl82 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [twitter.com]
> 4424071?s=21
> I think the view of the nursery in east dulwich
> grove is both telling and sad.


This has been highlighted to councillors today, the impact for them and other schools and nurseries on these roads is untenable.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by slarti b October 13, 05:43PM

@Spartacus
Imagine the cost of replacing every road sign in the UK from miles to km

Interesting that the distance markers on motorways, the labels on the side\centrl barrier which you will be asked for in event of accident or breakdown, show the disctance in kiometres from the start of the motorway winking smiley

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by JohnL October 13, 05:45PM

Spartacus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> malumbu Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > We should all use KM, trouble is we are a
> backward
> > nation, not as backward as the US. Backward is
> of
> > course a relative term and used to stress the
> > point.
>
> Boy
> Imagine the cost of replacing every road sign in
> the UK from miles to km
>
> Still not to worry, we're getting pounds shillings
> and pence back soon 🤔

When I was young every signpost in Wales was English only and someone made it their job to cover every one with green paint. These days every sign is bilingual with Welsh first.

Mind You it works both ways with the loss of our EU status - I brought 48 cans of Brewdog last week and 16 of them were made in the USA and had 12 fluid Oz instead of 330 ml



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was october 13, 05:49pm by JohnL.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by slarti b October 13, 06:09PM

Decimilisation in the UK is a lot older that the EU. The florin (2 shillings) was introduced as a first step to this as a tenth of a pound in...1849!

Metric measurements were legalised in 1896 and a draft bill in 1910 proposed compulsory metrification but was dropped due apparently to "war and depression"

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by JohnL October 14, 09:47AM

LOL reminds me that France were once going for a 10 month year - it got abandoned smiling smiley

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by malumbu October 14, 09:59AM

I was taught in both imperial and metric measurements, but by high school it would have been exclusively the latter. Can't do maths, technical drawing and the sciences in the modern world using ancient units of measurement. The 70s are now considered a time of strife, but I think at the dawn of the decade there was a lot of positivity about a new technical age. Kelloggs ran a campaign on their cereal packets on simple ways of converting to metric units. It seems that things were similar on the US:

The Metric Conversion Act is an Act of Congress that President Ford signed into law on December 23, 1975.[1] It declared the metric system "the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce", but permitted the use of United States customary units in all activities. As Ford's statement on the signing of the act emphasizes, all conversion was to be "completely voluntary."[1] The Act also established the United States Metric Board with representatives from scientific, technical, and educational institutions, as well as state and local governments to plan, coordinate, and educate the U.S. people for the Metrication of the United States.

..... the Metric Conversion Act of 1975, directed departments and agencies within the executive branch of the United States Government to "take all appropriate measures within their authority" to use the metric system "as the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce."

The metrification board was abolished in 1982 by President Ronald Reagan.... [extract from wiki before you complain about the spelling]

As for converting road signs etc the Canadians and Irish have managed this. Although Canada is all over the shop in every day practice eg shopping - we've at least sorted that out, apart from beer and milk - a simple step would be to sell both in multiples of 600ml, getting over the issue of devaluation if simplified to half a litre.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by northbank October 14, 11:31AM

Penguin68 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 35% of all car trips are shorter than 2km....
>
> You have to be a bit careful about these figures.
> If you set off on a long trip, stop at a garage
> locally for petrol, and then continue, that's 2
> trips - once under 2km, and one longer.

That's one trip with two stages. " A trip is defined as a one-way movement from an origin to a
destination to achieve a specific purpose, for example, to go from home to work.
Each trip may involve travel by one or more individual modes of transport. These
component parts of trips are referred to as journey stages. Key concepts relating
to trips, journey stages and main mode of travel were explained in detail in Travel
in London report 5, including the assignment of a main mode to each trip based on
the journey stage by which the longest distance is travelled (as part of a whole
individual trip)."
[content.tfl.gov.uk]

>It depends
> very much on how they are being both recorded and
> reported. Broadly (and it makes sense) the figures
> give a reasonable view - mostly (60% of the time)
> you travel within around 5kms of your starting
> place before returning - though who you're with,
> what you are carrying and the purpose of your
> journey are ignored. As is the state of the
> weather and the time (you're more likely to take a
> car if you plan some part of your journey out or
> return when public transport you could use isn't
> running).

Other criteria for switching from car in here
[content.tfl.gov.uk]

Criteria - Filter
Encumbrance - The person making the trip is carrying tools or heavy work equipment.
Age - Trips of more than 1.5km made by those aged under 12 or over 69; trips of more than 2km made by those aged 12-69.
Current mode - Trip made by van, dial-a-ride, plane or boat.
Trip chaining - The trip is part of a wider chain of trips that cannot be walked in its entirety

and here
[content.tfl.gov.uk]

Criteria - Filter
Encumbrance - Person carrying a heavy or bulky load
Trip length - Trip is longer than 8km
Journey time - Trip would take more than 20% extra time to cycle
Age - Traveller is over five and under 64
Time of travel - Trip is made between 8pm and 6am
Disability - Traveller has a disability affecting their travel
Current mode - Trip made by van, dial-a-ride, plane or boat

>
> And if you're running a relatively (or completely)
> 'clean' vehicle - electric or hydrogen
> (eventually) the number and length of your trips
> will be completely irrelevant when it comes to
> issues of pollution. Which is the future that many
> people are looking to - but if the cycling brigade
> get their way, and we are forced out of having
> cars, the necessary economies of scale for an
> electric or hydrogen future will be lost. If
> people don't or can't, buy sufficient numbers of
> the cars, they will be generally unaffordable - so
> the only motorists left will be the wealthy.
> Considering the socialist (indeed Marxist)
> background of so many of the campaigners surely an
> unintended consequence?

"A literature review carried out for the European Commission concluded that about half of all particulate matter results from brake dust, road dust and tyre erosion"
[www.imeche.org]

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Penguin68 October 14, 03:02PM

Decimilisation in the UK is a lot older that the EU. The florin (2 shillings) was introduced as a first step to this as a tenth of a pound in...1849!

Metric measurements were legalised in 1896 and a draft bill in 1910 proposed compulsory metrification but was dropped due apparently to "war and depression"


Off topic, I know, but (I'm old) I was taught to calculate in base 10, base 12, base 20, (base 21 - for guineas) base 8, base 16, base 14, base 112 (and don't get me talking about rods, poles and perches) modern children get base 2 and base 10 only. Whose was the more searching education?

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by JohnL October 14, 05:24PM

Hex (base 16) surely still being taught or how do they understand a IPv6 or MAC address.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by exdulwicher October 14, 05:37PM

Quote:
Off topic, I know, but (I'm old) I was taught to calculate in base 10, base 12, base 20, (base 21 - for guineas) base 8, base 16, base 14, base 112 (and don't get me talking about rods, poles and perches) modern children get base 2 and base 10 only. Whose was the more searching education?

That's fantastic!

UK railways still use an amazing mix of metric and imperial. Railway length is measured from a defined point (ie distance from origin station) so all technical documents refer to features (like a set of points, a bridge etc) as being xx miles, yy chains from [origin]

A chain is 22 yards. 10 chains to a furlong and 8 furlongs to the mile.

Quote:
Hex (base 16) surely still being taught or how do they understand a IPv6 or MAC address.

No chance - not unless you go for computer science at degree level.

This is more fun than talking about road closures, maybe we need another thread in the Lounge for random geeky maths!

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by KidKruger October 14, 10:38PM

Anyone learning computer science at GCSE or above should understand a bit about base 16 Hex.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was october 14, 10:39pm by KidKruger.

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by malumbu October 15, 10:52AM

Always found it strange that in engineering 50 years ago 1000ths of an inch were used for fine precision rather than 1728ths

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by FairTgirl October 16, 11:15AM

For anyone who has not seen it - Cllr McAsh posted this on his blog today.

[www.jamesmcash.com]

messageRe: Urgent: Help Reopen Closed Melbourne Grove and adjacent roads
Posted by Slocky October 16, 11:45AM

FairTgirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For anyone who has not seen it - Cllr McAsh posted
> this on his blog today.
>
> [www.jamesmcash.com]
> n-ltn-measures

A useful, informative and balanced analysis I thought.

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