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But surely there must have been an impact assessment done by TFL, the Mayor's office and local authorities on what rolling out blanket 20mph would have in both positive and negative terms - clearly the Welsh government did it? It's interesting because earlier this year TFL put out a press release entitled: Powerful new long-term TfL research shows 20mph speed limits save lives on London’s roads Does anyone have a link to this particular piece of research as it is not linked on the TFL press release website? Interestingly the research was focused on 150 20mph zones implemented between 1989 and 2013 and I was interested in determining where those 20mph zones were. Interestingly the press release does call out other positive impacts on road safety during that period of time and says that 20mph was not the sole contributory factor and that this was factored into the research. Does anyone know where that report can be found, normally a link can be found on the press release website of TFL but there isn't one for this one and even AI cannot find it?

Do you have a link to that? I suspect this may be because none has been done or it has not been released. I believe the Welsh economic impact figure came out due to an FOI as it was part of the impact assessment the Welsh government did before implementing it. One presumes TFL, the Mayor's office and local councils must have done one before rolling out the 20mph? Because I am talking about economic impact and when talking about arterial routes like the A205 they used to flow at 30mph and traffic lights were phased to keep it moving as such. Have you noticed how journeys are now taking longer in London - that has an economic impact.

But @Earl Aelfheah is the arterial road network throughout London not calibrated via traffic signals to keep it free-flowing as much as possible? It certainly used to be. Maybe you ought to think...if the economic impact of the 20mph rules in, as you describe it as less-densely populate area like Wales, is £4.5bn then what would it be in a much more densely populated area like London where many more vehicular journeys are taking place in a much more densely populated area and where major arterial routes around the city like the A205 are subject to 20mph limits? If what @snowy says is true that only 39% of Welsh roads were subject to the 20mph limit and the Welsh government's own research showed the economic impact of that was £4.5bn what is the economic impact of 20mph across large swathes of London - surely TFL and the Major's office would have done that as part of an impact assessment before rolling the measures out - that is how the Welsh £4.5bn came to light as it was part of their impact assessment? That's just a guess - the only thing we can definitively say is that for every mile at 20mph vs 30mph a journey takes one minute longer per mile. I think anyone who regularly drives, or is driven, around London can see that journey times have increased in line with the above (if not more so). And this is where Imperial College were unable to show that 20mph led to more consistent speeds (or a definitive reduction in pollution)....they were hedging by saying that it MAY lead to a smoother driving style but they could not prove it would.

Imagine the economic impact in a densely populated area.... Yes and every mile at 20mph rather than 30mph takes one minute longer.......makes you think.... Well that's the defense the cyclist who killed the lady in Regent's Park offered during the hearing.... And for once we agree!

How come then that the Welsh government’s own impact assessment/research suggested that the blanket 20mph across Wales would cost the Welsh economy £4.5bn over 30 years…..? Has anyone done a similar piece of research for London? I think you are confused as I have been calling for bicycles to adhere to the rules of the road and the fact that it is ludicrous that the speed limits do not apply to cyclists and when a cyclist killed a pedestrian whilst he was doing around 28mph he faced no legal recourse by claiming the speed limit did not apply to him.

@snowy maybe go back and re-read what I posted…..you have conveniently ignored what happened in 2021….why might that be? I am sure you believe you are an excellent driver @malumbu but only if everyone drives that will does a reduction to 20mph has a positive impact on pollution levels (according to TFL and Imperial College). A lot of people do not so what does that do to claims made by Southwark that 20mph reduces pollution? Probably renders if meaningless….. One backed up by data that shows that is indeed the case…it doesn’t take a genius to work out why. Only few posts back you were claiming I was questioning your “expertise” because you said the police set the speed limit and I challenged you that they did not. I am glad you have acknowledged that your expertise didn’t quite extend to that fact and that it is the local traffic authority (TFL and Southwark where we live) sets the speed. And you fail to address the point that by the definition within the Highway Code it is a 20mph road and it is one of London’s key arterial routes that was developed as such. There are many ruins where it is more than one lane in each direction. According to the Highway Code 30mph is an appropriate speed limit. Let’s back up a bit @Earl Aelfheah as you are doing your usual trick of putting words into people’s mouths again. Please try to get your facts right, I am, saying that a more pragmatic approach is needed rather than a blanket 20mph…..which no more than a few posts back you also seemed to agree with…. Hang on, no more than few posts ago @Sue was claiming 30mph is 50% faster than 20mph….yet you claim it has no discernible difference to journey times. Which one is it?

Well @Sue I answered the first part addressing the "more people will walk and cycle if the speed limit is 20 mph" in my previous messages. TFL has actually addressed the claim around pollution by saying there is no difference in No2 pollution at 20mph but that if cars are driven in a "smoother" way at 20mph there may be a reduction in particulate matter. I think we all see cars being driven less smoothly as they accelerate and brake between speed cameras. Collisions, yes of course reducing speeds reduces the risk of accidents but most accidents happen at junctions and the A205, in the main, has junctions controlled by traffic lights. This is why that statement by Southwark is so flawed, much of what they claim does not pass the scrutiny test, it is a collection of ideological soundbites they know they can throw out and their supporters will throw around as fact. On this thread alone there have been two very clear examples of people making claims that are just nonsense (claims that police set the speed limit in the area and claims that 30mph on the Westway was because of ageing infrastructure). And this is the point, a pragmatic approach would say roads like the A205 should remain 30 mph, but the pragmatic approach is not the one taken. I ask you again, do you consider 30mph on a A-road like the A205 to be too fast or as you refer "speeding".

Because often those measures are not brought in pragmatically. The A205 being 20mph is one of those, the Westway elevated section being 30mph is another. I very often cycle to West London and I would never want to cycle along the A4 no matter what speed it was - that's me being pragmatic. I often see people trying to and I often think that is being driven by ideology or stupidity - or a dangerous combination of both! I have been doing that journey far longer than the 20mph blanket measures were brought in and the route I chose to go those measures have made zero difference because the route I use is wonderfully quiet and always has been. Do you really think the A205 should be 20mph? It's one of London's most important arterial routes and is the very definition of a 30mph road in the Highway Code. Surely you can put your ideology aside and use your traffic management expertise to acknowledge that?

Do you consider 30mph to be the definition of a speeding car? As I was saying....ideological claptrap. The blanket rollout of 20mph by councils like Southwark was driven by an anti-car ideology and was not at all pragmatic. I think some in the active travel lobby would refer to it as a "nudge technique"...

Err @Sue how on earth does reducing speeds to 20mph encourage more cycling and walking exactly...do vars drivers suddenly say...oh, I can only go 20mph perhaps I will walk instead....ideological claptrap...

@snowy have we touched a raw nerve..you've gone very defensive...?;-) Maybe you are not aware but TFL started rolling-out 20mph on London roads in....2020..... Absolute nonsense. The 30mph was applied in 2020 as a temporary order whilst joints were replaced and then once the work was completed TFL made it permanent under their "Lowering Speeds Programme" in 2021 to "reduce road dnager". Are there any exceptions in, says Lambeth or Southwark...? Seemingly not....and the justification from Southwark for the blanket 20mph reads like it is far more ideological than pragmatic....would you not agree? Southwark believes that a borough wide 20mph speed limit is the most cost effective method to reduce collisions, encourage more sustainable forms of travel such as walking and cycling and help improve air quality.

And this is the point - by not taking a pragmatic approach those rolling out these plans tend to highlight themselves as being driven by ideology rather than common-sense - the A205 and many similar A-roads under TFL's stewardship are perfect examples, the A40 elevated section another and the whole of Wales was another.....and all it goes to do is turn people against all of the measures and people then look on them all ideologically rather than pragmatically!!! ;-).

@malumbu the south circular is the very definition of an urban road and it has street lights so, by the Highway Code, that is a 30mph road. It's only in Wales and parts of London that it is a 20mph road and that's because the local traffic authority (TFL and Southwark council), not the police, decided to set the speed limit as thus. Some would suggest that these decisions were driven by political, ideological and revenue-generation reasons. Absolutely. But often those doing things for ideological reasons leave pragmatism behind....;-)

I agree the folks at Finches are lovely and this is such a blow to them I really hope they can recover.