mockney piers

I suspect you're right there Snorky. That and giving NATO some excuse to continue in the face of noises about an EU replacement or even a European Army.

gerry Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Throughout history,every powerful country is > guilty of gettng it wrong, unfortunately, and does > that mean powerful countries should stop trying to > make things right? Britain is no exception. > > > Should we judge all Americans by their leaders? > Should we judge all British by Gordon Brown or > Tony Blair or Ken Livingstone? I don't think we > can be so prejudiced and still call ourselves an > intelligent, enlightened society. I've already made the point that people shouldn't be judged by their leaders, Gerry. And yes Britain got many things wrong (again point made) and continues to do so. Should we stop trying to make things right? Depends on what right means? Defend the weak? Lovely thought but not alot of it goes on. Most of those past mistakes I've highlighted, and those we continue to make are pretty much attributable to the reasons *Bob* gave.

"does that mean we want powerful countries to always turn a blind eye to what's happening around the world?" absolutely not, but we'd like them to behave multilaterally through an organisation, say....oooh, the UN perhaps? Not marginalise it or cast a veto every time they want to do something bad or prop up bad people. Korea was pretty clear cut, Kuwait, however avoidable it may have been in the first place, was pretty clear cut. How does overthrowing a democratic government and installing brutal dictators end up being the obverse of turning a blind eye? God damn, they were going to nationalise their own resources, not a chance!!!

Whatever the motives may have been, the Marshal Plan and the reconstruction of post war europe is right up there in the good things they did side.

Eh? I'm a bit lost. How am I making a case for intervention? I'm saying that in some cases the US installed nasty regimes such as in Iran, in many cases they supported coups for nasty regimes as in Chile, Argentina, El Salvador, South Vietnam. Sometimes they propped up terrible regimes, South Vietnam, most of the bad ones in Latin America, they poured a billion dollars of military aid into tiny little el salvador, 70,000 deaths, half a million homeless, a whole million exiled. Sometimes they stuck their oar in with terrible consequences (Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Iraq) and sometimes they simply got rid of good regimes such as Guatemala. Sometimes they were complicit in the terrible actions of nasty regimes, twice in Indonesia, twice in iraq. Sometimes they simply shot iranian airliners out of the sky. A few snippets but the list is very long. In all cases they were wrong wrong wrong. A force for good? Well, that's just it, so often it IS a force for good, but so often it IS a force for what they would call terror and what Bush would no doubt call 'evil'

As your Iraq 2 is avoiding the Lancet report and studiously avoiding the estimated half a million children dead thanks to the 'UN' sanctions that denied Iraq basic medicines and sanitation*, what about the 300,000 shias encouraged to rise against Saddam then left to their fate (no fly zones ignored for saddam's gunships for the duration of the suppression) when they realised they didn't want shias running iraq, we're already seeing a gulf in the figure of about 1.3 million on just one example. How many people were tortured to death in the Shah's prisons, how many people did Suharto kill with tacit US support, how many did Sukarno kill with direct US logistical support, how many people did Pol Pot kill, he wouldn't have had a chance at power if it wasn't for the massive bombing campaigns in Cambodia and the direct intervention in campbodia in an attempt to close the ho chi min trail in the nearby utterly pointless war. Ok, that's another 2-4 million there. How about the Retroviral drugs denied so many to ensure the profit margins of the big pharmas. If the States was truly altruistic it could create a sea-change in the way the west treats the developing world, but no (we're no better on this one). I could go on. It was tragic in a bi-polar world where conflict was viewed through a warped lens of a struggle against communism. But in a post '92 world where America is the world policeman and can be a force for good, then continued conflict is unforgivable. One of the problems is its economy is so utterly dependent on the military, and noone dares do anything about it lest they be held responsible for provoking another great depression. Sadly, even if this is the case, subsequent administrations seem to continue to have a use it or lose it approach, and keep stirring up conflict in order to justify the vast military budget. That's 50% of all military spending in the world, and just look at how it dominates the world. http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=884 Imagine these resources poured into alleviating poverty and establishing equality and real freedom in the world, and you begin to see how not only the post war (war to end all wars 2?), but the post Soviet collapse opportunities have been wholly squandered. *Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: 2I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it."

...the good times are killing me

"You read one e-mail and extrapolate about all Americans." That's specious, and knowing you alan dale, almost certainly deliberately so, good to see you back to your old flaming ways. Whether you like it or not, racist or not, America's foreign policy has been responsible for upward of 5 million deaths in the post war period, and probably higher than that by a figure I wouldn't even be comfortable hazarding a guess at, but I'd be opening bids in the 20s, putting it on a par with Stalin's Soviet Union. We cannot paint all Americans as being as crass and insensitive as the anecdotal ones of Sean's story, but it is typically representative of the semantic gap between the US's malignant role in this world and the benign one perceived by it's citizens. It's no coincidence that post 9/11 that the US is finally doing a bit of soul searching and rightly so. Do a search for Why do they hate us and you get over 10 million hits. Maybe if it comes up with the right answers, it can start being more of a force for good in this world (it does do *some* nice things too, nothings ever black and white). At university we had a well attended conference on the post-war US role in Europe. Talk after talk on motives, expediency, manipulation one of the many visiting professors from over the pond stood up, and shouted "does noone in this room believe we acted out of altruism?". This was followed by his footsteps and the sound of chirruping crickets as he stormed out the room. And some of my best friends, indeed family are from the states. A people and it's government are very different things, as anyone of the million who marched against the Iraq war here are perfectly well aware.

The Dutch Race?!??! Apart from the one where they all skate down the frozen river, you're definitely making that one up. And you're right, Sean is pretty thick. But it might be interesting to think how we (english) might react to a Famine museum in Ireland, or a monument in Amritsar to the massacre. Or one of many other low points in British history and conduct.

Yep, still producing fearsome luminous greeny orange stuff out of my nose, and a bit of a tickly cough. But otherwise feel fine now, thank god I managed to get my head out of that vice, that just wasn't nice.

That's one of the funniest things I've heard in ages. They'd rather have had a nice balanced museum with words like Domino Effect spread liberally throughout, with pictures of GIs giving kids gum would they?

"And your beautiful woman is doing ok by you so far" Ha ha, yes she is, but part of me, thanks to damaged mentor, is still waiting for that sword of Damocles to fall!!

When I was about 16 a mentor of mine said "Never go out with a beautiful woman. After 5 years when she dumps you she'll break your heart. Go out with an ugly one, after 5 years when she dumps you you won't care" Mind you last time I saw him he was a lonely and rather bitter man. I'm not sure what it all means, but there was something about its fatalism that really appealed to me as a young'un and it always makes me chuckle. Mind you, total bullsh!t of course. You always care!!

sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet I keep finding myself doing that when I'm looking for something to cook in the fridge. Good to have you back for a bit Sean, you definitely good poh-lice.

I now leave a gun on the tire of my ride whilst I crack a raw egg and a drop a depth charge into my breakfast beer.

My bad, though I should warn you the rubbish nantwich/crewe rockers 'inuendo' with two songs to their canon, have, sadly, split.

I finally got round to getting the last Animal Collective album Strawberry Jam. It seemed to be in all the end of year best ofs (well, the less mainstream ones anyway), but I'd been a bit disappointed by Panda Bear's album, so I held off. Anyway, I shouldn't have. It's an absolute marvel, all the playfulness of Panda Bear, and the trademark bonkers soundscapes from AC, but it's much tighter focussed and more powerful than their previous work. Unsolved Mysteries and Cuckoo Cuckoo beat even The Purple Bottle and Banshee Beat for an unsettling encounter with your childhood nostalgia, tinged with death and loss. Well worth a place on anyone's shelf.

innuendo?!?! That was hardly 'nods as good as a wink to a blind bat' territory was it?

And why do I think Sean, and possibly Atila will ike the cut of Elk City's jib? Silver Lawyers

Surely the police or geography teachers must have known who the reputable dealers were. Some names and addresses would have been good hard practical info.

I'm listening to it at the moment as it goes. It's very different, certainly nothing like as immediate as Stories from the City..., more of a grower, but really beautiful. Works much better at home on the hi-fi while reading a good book, than it does at the office, with the headphones, bashing out code.

What....home?

The lovely Polly H Shame

This freaked me out, posted by a friend on facebook very recently. Front left is Dan who complained about nanny state laws, and he really stuck it to the man didn't he. This was taken about 3 months before he graduated and died, what a waste and if his death can mean anything, then for gods sake learn from his self defeating logic. There's nothing to be gained from not wearing a seatbelt that doesn't involve cutting your life off to spite your face.

A great quote from Andre Royo (Bubbles) "I did Law & Order while on hiatus from [shooting], and I got a lot of love ? they loved The Wire. In one scene, the cops come to my house because someone is killed and I have the weapon there. While we were shooting, I saw an open hallway and I ran out. And the director yelled ?Cut? and said, ?We?re not as smart as The Wire. On our show, you put your hands up and get handcuffed.? As long as there?s a character I can find some meaning in, I?ll do it. But being on The Wire has made looking at other shows and other scripts a little bit more difficult."