Earl Aelfheah

I don't think anyone really believes that there is any consultation process which Rocks would have been satisfied with, unless it had resulted in the outcome he wanted. Clearly there were failures in the way Lambeth consulted over the trial scheme in West Dulwich. There is no evidence at all that the Southwark scheme was unlawful. And it was challenged relentlessly (and still is, 5 years on).

As I’ve said, I don’t think these consultation processes are helpful as currently constituted. I would much rather they used proper market research techniques, and representative sampling, to get a better sense of the broad sweep of local sentiment. But the decision would still be for our representatives to make. It would never amount to a yes/no vote, nor should it imo. Rocks account above is massively inaccurate. Likening it to the post office scandal is just hysterical nonsense. Btw, for those of you interested in a summary of the phase 3 consultation (rather than accepting some of the stuff presented on this forum as though fact), it is here https://services.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/42203/OHS-Phase-3-Consultation-Summary-Report.pdf And for a general timeline of the various consultation activities leading up to the proposals: https://services.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/our-healthy-streets/our-healthy-streets-dulwich

…except Pebs, Rock’s account is not remotely accurate. They did You absolutely could say whether or not you supported the changes. But again, a consultation is not a referendum with a yes/no vote. When they (much later) consulted on options for landscaping the square, they did not hold a second consultation on the existence of the LTN itself; that they'd already consulted on, having implemented it years earlier. You moaned about this at the time, but of course it wasn’t an opportunity to revisit a decision already made, just because you didn’t like the outcome the first time. It’s just a fact. 5 years on, you’re still obsessing over a change made perfectly legitimately. You may not like the changes, but suggestions that the decisions made were illegitimate, or unlawful, are simply untrue, and of course you’ve provided no evidence for them. Again, insinuating malpractice or illegality, with absolutely zero evidence of either. This is just tin foil hat stuff. To liken a decision you personally don’t like and are obsessed over to a serious scandal that destroyed many lives is just sad. You really need to get some perspective. Of course you try to suggest that a totally unrelated issue, with a different scheme, in a different borough is somehow related. But it’s not. Just read the judgement. Again, it’s just innuendo and nonsense. You cannot provide any evidence of malpractice in relation to the Dulwich LTN. You are just fixated on it, because you didn’t get your way. Again, tin foil hat stuff. Southwark council are many things, but not a shadowy cabal. You really need to move on.

🥱

You fundamentally misunderstand how representative democracy works. A consultation is not a yes no vote, as ex-Dulwich points out. What one can’t make up is your absolute refusal to accept a change that happened 5 years ago. There is nothing undemocratic, illegal, or underhand about how the changes were implemented. If there was I’m sure they would have been stopped by those unhealthy obsessed with preventing the improvements. The square is here to stay, so people might want to start coming to terms with it.

Clearly not. Again, Google 'representative democracy'. 🫠

Those still obsessed with the square aren't really concerned with our system of democracy of course. Their issue is that they didn't get their own way. If they could change the outcome, they would happily do so even if it was clearly against the wishes of the majority (which I believe it would be). It's been 5 years and still they want to overturn a decision which was made by our democratically elected representatives, properly, legally and legitimately.

Start a thread in the lounge if you want to discuss changing our democratic system. There is no point in criticising our current system for not being something it isn't, and does not pretend to be. It's one thing to say an elephant makes a poor household pet, another to say it should be a better cat. By the way, I think you massively overestimate how many people want to see the square ripped out and returned to a queue of idling cars. I suspect the majority of locals would be extremely upset were it ever to happen. Just because there are a number of very loud objectors does not mean they are the majority

No one is claiming this. But again, you misunderstand how representative democracy works. You vote on who you think is going to best represent you and your interests across a broad range of issues, and they are empowered to do so for a term of office at which point they stand again on their record. You don't get to make decisions directly on every issues - that would be a system of direct democracy.

I haven’t said that. They can lobby their councillors, they have recourse to the law where the council step outside of their delegated powers and ultimately they get to vote on whether or not to return them. All of these rights have been exercised in relation to the Dulwich LTN. The scheme stands and has done for many years. At this point to claim a lack of democratic accountability is just nonsense pedalled by obsessives who cannot accept that they didn’t get their way.

They haven't manipulated any process. There were challenges at the time, by the unelected, unaccountable 'One Dulwich', which failed. The council were voted back in after the changes were made, by the electorate who's job it is to hold them to account. Just because you don't like a change to road layout made many years ago now, does not mean there is a democratic deficit. Again, you need to read up on our system of representative democracy. Ultimately, the council can make decisions on behalf of the electorate, in areas for which they have been delegated authority. The electorate then hold them accountable for those decisions through regular elections. This is how it works. Obviously there are regulations and laws to ensure they don't step outside of the powers allocated to them, but there is absolutely zero evidence that Southwark have done this in relation to the Dulwich LTN. So it really just boils down to a handful of obsessives, who don't like a legitimate decision taken by the council years ago now. This is nothing to do with democracy. And 'One Dulwich' aren't holding anyone to account - under what powers exactly? We don't know who they are, or how they're funded, yet they claim to speak on behalf of the community. Dulwich Square is not going to be ripped up and returned to a queue of idling cars. It's not what the majority want, and it's not what the council were elected to do.

The electorate hold the council to account, not opaque lobby groups. You talk about lack of democracy, and the will of a supposed majority to narrow the pavements, remove seating and planting from the square and return it to a queue of idling cars, but I don't believe for one second that it is the wish of most locals. Again, it's the electorate who hold the council to account. The electorate decided to vote our councillors back in.

You have no evidence that it became a 'major displacement route', by your own account. You claimed there had been massive displacement onto other boundary roads, until the data showed that there wasn't. It's telling that you have no data you can point to, except data that doesn't exist (and which to your mind is the only data that matters). Ever feel like perhaps you're looking for a way to prove what you already believe? They monitored the roads for a year post implementation I believe. A full year of data to assess and compare pre and post implementation and with traffic pre-covid. What do you want? That they monitor every road indefinitely, so you can pick through it to find something that might prove your pre held belief? Do be serious.

It's interesting that you think 'the only fact that matters' is that you can name a road which wasn't monitored; ignoring all the ones that were, and dismissing all available data.

So where do you draw the line. You think they have to monitor every road, no matter how far away? every road in the postcode, in the borough, in London? They monitored a good number of roads in and around the LTN and showed a fall in traffic overall, across the wider area. To claim it showed the opposite is simply untrue.

Yes, exactly why I stated that it was only a correlation, the point being however, that pollution did not increase on surrounding roads. It fell. So when people claim that pollution rose, they are wrong. When they claim that traffic didn’t fall across the wider area, they are wrong. Wrong on matters of fact, not opinion. So some opinions and anecdote, versus peer reviewed, data based research?

No evidence of this at all. In fact the data shows that traffic did reduce across the wider area post LTN implementation and air quality has improved (although this is only a correlation).

This sounds like it's straight out of a dystopian novel. For the love of all that’s holy, someone replace it with idling cars.

You do realise that the square is here to stay right?

Which measures? Are we talking about the Dulwich LTN, what happened in Lambeth, or the CPZ. You see I don’t think it matters for some on here. They’re against any change. And that's the problem. If you're still talking about the square, (and whether you approve of Southwark council or not), it’s just not true that they’ve cheated anything. They held multiple consultations and won challenges mounted by One Dulwich. @exdulwicher lays out the history very well above. I don't need to forget 'what they've done'. I think it's great - the square is a great improvement. I think you on the other hand would be well to try and heal some of your 'wounds' over it. I really don't think that so many years on your continued obsession is likely to be doing you much good.

To you personally? What did he promise? Did he whisper 'it's all a secret conspiracy' as you slept?

Pretty sure they didn't say FOR ALL (and certainly not at the volume your capitalisation suggests). At some point Rocks, you are going to have to accept that Dulwich now has a nice pedestrian area where the used to be a line of traffic. It's literally been years since the layout was changed. It's actually a nice space, you should go and have a sit there and enjoy the sun.

The data shows that traffic did fall across the wider area. Don't think I've said anything much about the CPZ - except to point out some facts about what a consultation is and isn't and how our system of democracy works. I don't really have any strong views on the CPZ. I'm not disputing this - but are you able to provide a link to where they have said this and exactly what they've said? It seems like a silly 'promise', as outside of the usual consultation procedures there is no duty on them to prove a majority (of who exactly) are in favour of such a scheme.

Did they say this? If so, it's a silly thing for them to say, and no, clearly they don't have evidence for 'majority support' whatever that means (a majority of who?). You keep asking the same question about it, but surely you should be directing it to the councillor in question? No, I'm fairly sure it doesn't, but Penguin does seem to believe otherwise.

At least years later Rockets has taken it on the chin and is not still absolutely obsessed with it