first mate

Or to put it another way, CPZ revenue is used to fund LTNs as well as other things. The two are interlinked, something that up until very recently you denied. Why? It is you that keeps mentioning a conspiracy, I haven't. Another attempt to deflect and misrepresent?

@Earl Aelfheah Another standard copy and paste pro LTN/CPZ lobbyist handbook response. This is almost word for word what Malumbu writes when he is stuck for an answer. No need to ask the council, Rockets has published clear evidence from the council that CPZ are a council revenue raising tool. What is very clear is that the very recently completed LTN changes in Dulwich Village, including the million pound, unwanted, Vanity Square are closely linked to the brand new, soon to be activated, Dulwich Village CPZ, also unwanted by the majority of consultation respondents, but necessary for Southwark Council to glean revenue and fund its fanatical follies.

It is a personal attack. You have accused him of doing something and have asserted that is his motivation for the thread. Where did Rockets say Southwark had fined him? In making your personal attack you have also attempted to twist and misrepresent. Clipping a bus lane demarcation line as you turn across the end of the bus lane is not the same as driving in a bus lane. You have form on accusing others of making things up, but here is an example of you doing just that. Where exactly has Rockets said he was fined at this bus lane?

But Southwark's own documents show that CPZ revenue is spent on funding LTNs. Are you now saying those documents are inaccurate or that you know better? It is all a bit playing with words. LTNs may help create conditions that make the case for a CPZ and that then generates revenue that is currently placed under some rather vague surplus headings, like environmental and housing and community. It is all very interlinked. So, CPZ revenue has been used to fund unwanted and unnecessary projects like Vanity Square, even though, and this is something that requires greater scrutiny, the DV LTN is said by Southwark Council not to be a 'true' LTN.

Hilarious. You have to resort to personal attacks; nowhere else to go. We have seen this before with the pro LTN lobby if you cannot debate with facts and evidence, then go low, seems part of the playbook.

Oh yes, but it seems many of these things are interlinked, doesn't it. Now we know CPZ and parking fines fund LTNs, maybe revenue from driving in bus lanes also goes into this pot? No, of course you are not part of an LTN lobby😉

Ah yes, the school crossing patrols- does this include lollipop handlers?

Oh, so you now agree CPZ revenue is used to fund LTNs, they are not unrelated? Since you have the inside track on all this can you explain in terms of use of parking revenue, what does Environmental cover exactly? What about housing and community?

It is so telling that you'd much rather focus on this, another opportunity to charge others with "confirmation bias" and "cherry picking" but you and the rest of the LTN lobby are silent on the relationship between parking revenue and funding of LTNs. I wonder if you can get something about the laws of physics into this also- another of your standard responses. You are very quick to accuse others of playing fast and loose with the truth but, again, you have twisted what Rockets has said. He is not advocating driving in bus lanes and you know it; he is saying that the chosen use of bus lane demarcation lines by the council seems to deliberately increase the risk of cars clipping the white line as they turn left, because this bus lane is longer than usual and in certain traffic conditions it may be harder to judge where the line ends. He also points out that this is the turning Southwark Council have chosen to monitor with a camera. No doubt you and your fellows in the council might argue that the camera is warranted but, if you/they genuinely want to reduce violations why not give a bit more length on the turn? Why make it unusually short?

Also wondering what a few headings actually mean, especially environmental? For instance, the council had plans to convert its fleet of vehicles to electric, could funding new electric vehicles go under the environmental heading? What does Housing and Community mean? How can parking/fines revenue be used there? No wonder Southwark want a borough-wide CPZ. The LTN/LCC lobby voices on here are peddling fabrications about the true motivations for traffic changes in our borough. It is all about the money.

Don't you mean according to what extent the council think people can be suckered into getting fines? For you to put someone that drives close to a white line, into the same category as someone that drives up a bus lane is interesting.

Ah, so you are absolutely scrupulous about this, in your view, a car wheel touching the outside edge of the white demarcation line is exactly the same as driving up the middle of a bus lane and should be penalised in exactly the same way. Yup, definitely about making money for the council by any means possible.

As ever, complete misrepresentation of what has been stated. Why do you insist on doing this? It does not reflect well on you. The point is you do not have to actually drive in the specific bus lane Rockets refers to to get a penalty, your vehicle wheel just needs to touch the white line- an easy mistake to make at a junction where even you agree the white lines have been extended more than usual.

At a guess, cars looking to turn left may, based on other experiences of taking a left turn across a bus lane area, expect a longer line free area before the junction. Harder to judge in lower light. The key point made earlier by Rockets is that at this particular left turn you do not have to enter the bus lane to get a penalty, your vehicle wheel just needs to touch the white line.

Whilst looking into how the Dulwich Village road changes are funded, I came across something that suggests Southwark do not consider it a 'true' LTN. I am not clear what that means exactly but guess the Council have allowed themselves even more wriggle room for its imposition.

Why are you so very protective of a council that is not even yours? Anyone would think you worked for them 😉

Malumbu, that second sentence, addressed to me, must be one of the most misleading responses you have ever given. I'll repeat what I said none of you had yet responded to- in regard to the relationship between CPZ and LTN. The fact checking was by Rockets.

Hmmm, hold your horses Earl and Ex- I did some fact checking for you and according to Southwark’s latest Parking Report of the £17m surplus made from CPZ parking costs, PCNs etc over £2m of that was used to fund “LTN costs”, which throws your statement into some considerable doubt. Neither Earl, Ex or Malumbu have responded to this, I wonder why?

I suspect many have always walked and cycled in and continue to do so. The current arrangement makes little difference to that, it simply replaces cars that wait at the junction with cyclists that tend to ignore the red lights. On Friday I saw a Lime bike rider choose to use the pedestrianised area to cycle over, perhaps to shave a millisecond off his journey or perhaps because, as others have said, the demarcation between what was road and the rest of the paving is not clear. Oh, how very telling!

Proof, if proof were needed, that it is all about making money. If you drive in a bus lane that is one thing, but to brush or touch the line and still get fined is altogether different.

Just my own experience, but since these measures I have seen increased traffic in surrounding streets, I honestly feel the only beneficiaries are the able-bodied and wealthy few (including, I believe some councillors) who wanted their own little car-free sector. It seems to me they have put in every possible intervention to achieve that aim...it is almost like a gated community. There used to be queues of cars at rush hour, but never for long and always manageable. The junction worked, in my view. Problems occurred when there was building work or roadworks. I have noticed absolutely no difference or extra benefit to when I walk or cycle. For when I have to use a car, I still use one. I do not make fewer journeys as a result of these interventions, they simply take longer and use more petrol.

I would venture that guidance is different from a recommendation. Perhaps the former is about existing policy and the latter about what the council would like to happen. Rather like the council recommended borough-wide CPZ but then had to back down from it. Wherever they are placed, high PTALS seem to be one of the conditions the council has stated for prioritising an LTN and I would think there are more high PTALS areas in the north than south of the borough. The real question is that given the various conditions the council has outlined for prioritising LTNs, how Dulwich Village ever got one?

Embarrassing to who? What Rockets says in outlining the council agenda on LTNs seems very clear. -For Dulwich Village LTN -What evidence of poor air quality? -It is low PTAL area and has poor public transport -It has high levels of car ownership (hence council case for imposition of CPZ) -It is not a deprived area -What evidence it impacts positively on a local hospital? -What evidence it impacts positively on local schools? I can only see one condition that is possibly met and that is the last, although we would need hard data to show that.

To make that a reality you would have to block the cyclists whizzing through, many ignoring red lights. I could not think of a worse example to try to illustrate your point, it just does not seem convincing, having witnessed what actually goes on at Dulwich Sq. But Rockets was talking about CPZ wasn't he, Earl. And, as you have kept saying, this is a thread about CPZ. I have already cited the Council's own document on its various interventions where it states what it needs to do to effect its Streets for People initiatives in Dulwich Village and CPZ is one of them. It states it needs to reduce car use and one way is via CPZ.

The Council in its Q&A document, section 15, on Dulwich CPZ and Junction ( it chooses to address both in one document) also states that it has to reduce parking in order to effect its 'Streets for People' 'improvements'. They are linked, whether you like it or not. The Council says they are. Streets for People includes safety- therefore my mention of lollipop handlers, to stop traffic to allow children to cross roads safely. One possible conclusion is that, by their own admission, Southwark need to impose CPZ in order to perpetuate their Streets for People initiative, of which Dulwich Junction is one example.