rendelharris

That's the righteous stuff Jah, one of my top ten - I always regard it as linked to The Girl From the Red River Shore for some reason.

By the way, for Dylan fans, if you haven't come across it, check out dylanradio.com. No idea how they get away with it but it's 24/7 Dylan, no DJs, no ads - tons of bootlegs as well as the album stuff, it's wonderful.

*Bob* Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > A poem must convey everything just by words. > > The magic, indefinable element of a song is the > symbiosis of words and music. > > IMO a song is a song and poetry is poetry - and > the most successful forms of each are not > interchangeable simply by adding music or by > taking it away. By the same logic Shakespeare (had he not written the sonnets etc) couldn't have won a Nobel as his words are written to be spoken by actors? Is drama not interchangeable with poetry, i.e. is it susceptible of standing alone on the written page? Then why not a song lyric?

Sue Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Yeh, fair enough, I think I was thinking more of > his actual poetry rather than song lyrics. > > I was bought a book of it one Christmas. Maybe I > just wasn't in the mood for it. Oh God yeah, agree with that - I've got three volumes of it here, none of which have been looked at more than once! Definitely only flowered into genius when he picked up the guitar.

Ah, I'd have to respectfully disagree there Sue - my only gripe with Bob getting the prize is that Laughing Len hasn't too many years left and they probably won't now give it to another songwriter for a decade or more. Now the courtroom is quiet, but who will confess. Is it true you betrayed us? The answer is Yes. Then read me the list of the crimes that are mine, I will ask for the mercy that you love to decline. And all the ladies go moist, and the judge has no choice, a singer must die for the lie in his voice. And I thank you, I thank you for doing your duty, you keepers of truth, you guardians of beauty. Your vision is right, my vision is wrong, I'm sorry for smudging the air with my song.

holloway Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I thought Nobel prizes were awarded for a > particular contribution to > literature/science/peace such as a landmark > discovery or negotiation of a treaty? > Dylan's award seems to be for his whole lifetimes > work which is obviously impressive, but doesn't > seem to fit into the Nobel literature category. In > my opinion. You're right about science and peace, but the literature criterion is "the most outstanding work in an ideal direction" - so amorphous it can mean anything the committee chooses I think. It's always awarded nowadays for the whole body of work rather than one particular book, poem or in this case song. The general criteria are roughly to have literary merit and display humanitarianism/idealism. It's worth noting that amidst all the fuss about Dylan's award that the Nobel committees are hardly the ultimate arbiters of literature - off the top of my head those who never got the prize include Nabokov, Joyce, Proust, Tolstoy, Auden and Chekhov - quite a list!

titch juicy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > My post was to point out that Bob Dylan's work is > literature in the strictest sense of the word. Whoosh! as I completely missed your point! Apologies.

Revived at KK's suggestion in honour of the Nobel... So many hundreds to choose from but my Desert Island Discs choice would be Shelter from the Storm from Blood on the Tracks. Some of his best imagery ("In a little hilltop village/They gambled for my clothes/I bargained for salvation/She gave me a lethal dose..."), beautiful tune and reminds me of all the amazing women, from mother to wife with a few in between, who've offered me shelter when I needed it.

titch juicy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The OED definition of literature. > > Written works, especially those considered of > superior or lasting artistic merit. Well his works are written down, in the sleeve notes - he writes them down when he writes songs. Many poets give readings of their works, we don't say that as what has been written down is then performed in a different medium that the "hard copy" can't be literature. It's perfectly possible to describe Dylan as a poet performing the poems he's written down, he just happens to add a bitching guitar track to the performance.

Bit left-field Marmite-love (great name) but I'm sure lots of private displays as well as some public ones will be taking place on the Friday, why not take some warm food and drinks, and maybe a few sparklers, somewhere up high - Crystal Palace or Telegraph Hill? - where you have a view over London and watch them all. It can be pretty spectacular. Hope you find something anyway.

I already have one thanks - rather a good one actually, but it's one of the old-fashioned sort which is only activated when someone says something amusing.

BrandNewGuy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ruffers Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > We need to separate commuting by bike from > > fitness. As long as people see it as exercise > > they'll want to improve, get faster and better, > > and that leads to competitiveness, and that > leads > > to conflict. > > > > Think of it as just a commuting option and > we're > > good. > > Couldn't agree more. In an early version of > 'nudge' activity, the first ATM in the UK was > launched using Reg Varney. The implication being > that if an ordinary fella can use this newfangled > machine, so can anyone. So to encourage commuting > by bike, I suggest they use a clearly unfit soap > star. Steve McFadden/Phil Mitchell would do > nicely... Hey, if they need an overweight bald middleaged bloke who cycles slowly I'm available!

first mate Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > RH think you are quite lucky if you can maintain > those kinds of speeds in central London at rush > hour. I do cycle sometimes so not speaking from a > position of complete ignorance. I don't mean as an average - I average about 12MPH over a whole journey, I meant when the traffic's moving at that pace it's safest to keep up with it. Yes there is too much aggression from some cyclists who don't want to lose momentum - particularly fixie riders. Get some gears and learn how to change down as you approach the lights and up as you pull away, would be my advice!

BrandNewGuy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Central Amsterdam is as awkward as central London > when it comes to narrow streets, bends and tricky > junctions. And they've achieved a critical mass of > cyclists so that, in fact, there are > proportionately far fewer cars on the road in the > city centre. > I don't mind about lycra one way or the other, but > to me it signals racing. You simply don't need to > wear lycra to cycle to work. The Dutch manage to > cycle in their ordinary clothes and their weather > is not noticeably better than ours. There's the nub: because the Dutch have a critical mass and indeed because Amsterdam is smaller, more twisty and with fewer multi-lane main roads and far more segregated provision than London, pottering to work without breaking into a sweat (and so without becoming an antisocial menace for the rest of the office) is far more possible. As segregated cycle provision increases hopefully the relaxed "pottering" style will become more and more possible.

first mate Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sorry RH, I think speed cycling is a choice that > people make quite consciously, just like speeding > in cars. I didn't mean speeding as in exceeding the speed limit, just keeping up a good 15-20 mph pace without which one is in danger of encountering aggression from motor vehicles on busy roads in London.

Penguin68 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Whilst I see very poor road behaviour from almost > all classes of road users, it is those on two > wheels who are most likely not to give warning of > road manoeuvres, particularly turns - indeed when > I see a cyclist signalling a turn it is a shock. Agreed - can I also put in a plea for more cyclists to thank drivers who they make way for them? I've got into the habit of signalling to turn right with my right hand, then giving the driver who's let me across a quick thumbs up with my left once across to the turning lane. Likewise, if on narrow streets a car stays behind me until it's safe to pass (without hooting or shouting!) I always raise a hand to say thank you when they do pass. Not compulsory of course but it does a little to make the roads feel more pleasant and reduce the us and them atmosphere.

BrandNewGuy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- In Holland, they're better behaved. No-one speeds > and everyone keeps their eyes open. This is in large part because the segregated provision for cyclists is so much better. If one wants to survive on many streets in Central London one has to maintain a high average speed or suffer abuse and aggression from those in motor vehicles - this doesn't happen in Amsterdam. It's a two way street, if cyclists don't feel stressed and aggressed when riding their behaviour will become less stressed and aggressive - as an example the new segregated superhighways are jam packed at rush hour but I've seen virtually no bad behaviour on them. What's the obsession with people wearing lycra, by the way? I know it looks pretty stupid on some people (it certainly does on me) but it's simply the most practical and comfortable gear for cycling. If one is commuting one can either cycle in one's work clothes (entirely impractical when it's too cold/too hot/too wet, i.e. virtually every day) or wear a different set of clothes for the journey; it makes sense to wear the most comfortable, quick drying clothing which packs away smallest, and that's specially designed cycle clothing. I really don't get it, nobody says "Oh look at that idiot going jogging in shorts and trainers when he could be wearing jeans" or "What a showoff that bloke is, wearing football boots to play football" but apparently it offends people if one dons appropriate cycle clothing for cycling.

puzzle007 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Not my comment I wasn't referring to your comment puzzle, which made perfect sense, I meant I was struggling to see the logic of Passiflora's peculiar assertion that not having compulsory insurance gave cyclists "the upper hand on car drivers/pedestrians." Apologies if my syntax was unclear.

first mate Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Perhaps there should be a means to prosecute > cyclists for dangerous/ reckless cycling in the > same way there is for other road users. Clearly > identification is an issue. Many more people are > now cycling so I guess incidences of bad cycling > will rise. What happens in countries like Holland > and Denmark? Are bad cyclists penalised or are > they jyst better behaved? This provision already exists in the Road Traffic Act which allows for dangerous, reckless, inconsiderate or careless cycling to be punished with fines of up to ?2500. Yes, obviously identification is an issue with it only really being possible to enforce if a police officer is present at the time of the behaviour ? in exactly the same way that it's impossible to enforce sanctions against the enormous number of drivers who do not keep to the speed limit when there is no camera or police officer present.

Passiflora Wrote: > Cyclists don't need any insurance so they have the > upper hand on car drivers/pedestrians. In what way would having insurance (which many cyclists, including myself, carry anyway) stop the stupid minority (and it is a minority, whatever the Daily Mail and its adherents would have one believe) from jumping red lights? Do you think the idiot puzzle007 describes thought "it's alright, I don't have insurance so I'll risk running the light?" Struggling to see the logic of your comment. Just for interest, in the course of a forty mile ride yesterday I twice had near misses with drivers jumping red lights, a Transit driver whose excuse for running a red at Elephant was "I don't drive here much and there didn't used to be a light there" and a skip lorry down in Greenwich whose driver's witty riposte to it being pointed that he'd missed hitting me by about six inches (as I was pushing my bike across a pelican crossing with the green man in my favour) was "Pay some f**king road tax." There are twats on bikes and twats in cars in equal proportion to the number of twats in society at large.

malumbu Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > However the cost of the Australian toilet will > have rocketted since I bought mine due to the week > pound, perhaps I should have bouught a job lot. > Sorry for digressing. wc/sink not we/sink which > sounds like a combined urinal sink. I was so intrigued by this concept, which I'd never heard of, that I Googled it - what a great concept, one can even get them at B&Q now and at a very reasonable price: http://www.diy.com/departments/cooke-lewis-duetto-close-coupled-toilet-with-integrated-basin-with-soft-close-seat/160720_BQ.prd

Dylan as pure poet (ignore the images), as good a eulogy as Auden on Yeats or Shelley on Keats...

Otta Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I wanted them to stay with us l;ast time out. > > But I am so bloody tired of hearing about Scotland > the liberal utopia. A good number of them voted to > leave too. Well, 38% with 62% remain...even more decisive than London, 59.9%-41.1%. I want them to stay with us but I can see why they feel they have a genuine grievance.

KidKruger Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If poetry can be included (not sure if it is/can) > then I've no problem with songsters too. > If we do look at songsters, Dylan is the main man > by a country mile. > I get that he don't write books and if the rules > for the prize say books only then yes he shouldn't > have been nominated. > But somewhere the rules must say he is legible for > consideration, so he was. > There's no single book or single author (say > Dostoyevsky, Gogol, Turgenev, Tolstoy) that have > impacted me as deeply as Dylan's words in his > lyrics. > Horses for courses though. > I can understand the shock horror of him being > awarded. I'm not bothered whether Dylan gets this > prize or not, it's not like he needs extra > credentials to validate his abilities and legacy > and he's probably embarrassed by the whole thing > and will reel-off a hundred (in his view) more > worthy wordsmiths. Very good summation (as a massive fan I'm delighted both for the recognition of his genius and the fact that it's upset a few tweed jacketed harrumphers) - yes poetry's always been considered for the Nobel, Kipling, Yeats, Eliot and Heaney being the recipients from our islands. Salman Rushdie best summed up why the objectors are wrong: "From Orpheus to Faiz, song & poetry have been closely linked. Dylan is the brilliant inheritor of the bardic tradition. Great choice." He might also have mentioned Homer, whose work would often have been performed to music - the concept of poem and song were pretty much synonymous. ETA before I get nitpicked yes I do know Eliot was an American but as all his great works were written after he moved to England and he became a naturalised British subject he counts as one of ours.

robbin Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Maybe the dog had been reading some of your > massive posts? Thank you for your usual helpful contribution to debate. Don't give up the day job.