Brock Turner

[WorkingMummy]

White, well educated people enjoy unfair leniency in our criminal justice system. I wish I could say they do not.

[rendelharris]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

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> White, well educated people enjoy unfair leniency

> in our criminal justice system. I wish I could say

> they do not.

Quite so and the same is the case in America, although apparently when seeing a white well educated youth get a farcical sentence even suggesting his wealth and status might have played a role is "not helpful" and "inflammatory."

[WorkingMummy]

....although I've never seen a sentence as crazy as six months for a contested charge of rape. And we have prosecution appeals against unduly lenient sentences over here. Which would certainly be used if this type of sentence was passed.

[rendelharris]

It does seem to be the case that it was an insanely biased judge - as per above, former captain of the Stanford lacrosse team - with some very strange notions that a criminal shouldn't go to prison if it is going to make his life worse, which one always imagined was kind of the idea behind jail as a deterrent.

[Otta]

I agree with DaveR on this.

Yes we know that as a rule white, well educated people get a far easier time from legal systems. No one is arguing about that.

But the thread title is "Brock Turner", and in this specific case I agree that race wasn't a factor. They published his bloody swimming times in the news reports FFS.

[WorkingMummy]

DaveR Wrote:

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> I'm not sure whether race played much of a part in

> the Stanford case. The main point is (as Blah

> said) that US universities have a very poor record

> when it comes to dealing with sexual assaults,

> particularly where the alleged assailant/s are

> college athletes.

>

> http://www.athleticbusiness.com/rules-regulations/

> college-athletic-departments-role-in-investigating

> -sexual-assaults.html

But this guy was dealt with. He was prosecuted (although the prosecution went after a weirdly low sentence from the off). He was convicted by a jury. The victim's impact statement is available online. It is harrowing but precisely and intelligently expressed - I mean it's overwhelming in effect. It was read to the judge just before he sentenced. As was a long and pitiful, barely remorseful letter from Brock. A few friends wrote to say he was not really a rapist (!) and then he got 6 months. In county jail.

I also wonder if the fact that the victim was unconscious was held in his favour too. The judge made a comment when handing down sentence that implied he understood to a degree why Brock could not accept the correctness of the verdict. Which again is just so....weird. A defendant's failure to "get it" should aggravate his sentence (and in this jurisdiction could trigger a public protection based addition to the length of sentence. But maybe the judge was really ambivalent about this rape being rape at all.

The DPP in this country (Alison Saunders) has been supporting police efforts to change attitudes towards sexual consent through initiatives like the one posted below. It is just so telling that this (v good) video needed to be made.

http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/crime-prevention/keeping-safe/consent-is-everything.htm

[rendelharris]

Otta Wrote:

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> I agree with DaveR on this.

>

> Yes we know that as a rule white, well educated

> people get a far easier time from legal systems.

> No one is arguing about that.

>

> But the thread title is "Brock Turner", and in

> this specific case I agree that race wasn't a

> factor. They published his bloody swimming times

> in the news reports FFS.

With all due respect Otta (because you do make lots of sense on here) I think that's a red herring: Brock was thrown out of Stanford and has been banned by the US swimming federation, so this is not one of those other cases mentioned where a college has shamefully tried to hush up sexual assault allegations in order to keep their star quarterback/point guard/pitcher, in fact as far as I can read Stanford acted admirably promptly and there was no attempt to cover up or hang on to him. So he'd already lost any college sports protection when he came to a US court, where the judge gave him a ridiculous sentence because he didn't want his life to be ruined. We may never be able truly to know why the judge behaved in this manner, but when you see a rich Stanford educated white man letting off a rich Stanford educated white man it's not too difficult to join the dots.

[WorkingMummy]

I agree. This was not a college hush up. To be fair - the college had no opportunity to hush it up, even if it had been inclined. Two Swedish grad students saw the rape actually taking place. (Behind a dumpster in a dark alley btw). They called out, Brock ran, they caught him. They called the police. It was never in the college's hands. Never a college matter.

Incidentally, one of the Swedes was so traumatised by what he had seen, he could not at first speak to the police for crying. The victim regained consciousness in police "custody". She was unconscious throughout the police's time at the scene, when taken to the hospital, and when first examined by doctors.

I thought the online news commentary you can see via the link in the OP has it right. The judge could identify with Brock Turner. He looks like his son, his friends' sons. Their life stories are all similar. It is easier to distance yourself from someone who doesn't look like you, and doesn't share your background. Easier to bang your gavel down and send them inside for 20 years.

[Medusa]

Loz Wrote:

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> Medusa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > ...and you'd be spot-on.

> >

> > Neither do women, by and large.

>

> There was too many double negatives in the OP. Do

> you mean women get more unfair leniency in the

> criminal justice system?

No. I was befuddled by the wording of the OP, despite decoding what (I assumed) the poster meant.

I meant that 'justice' is not meted out so much according to the crime as according to the status/privilege of the person who is charged/convicted.

I know of plenty of middle-class, white people who've dodged getting charged/convicted/sentenced to custodial time, along with references to their 'hitherto good character', etc. Meanwhile women are locked up for crimes of poverty, by and large (shoplifting, unpaid parking fines) and minority ethnic people are locked up in such numbers that you'd be forgiven for thinking they have been convicted of the crime of not being white.

[Blah Blah]

Yes, the Swedish witnesses acted immediately and it was a reported serious crime from the off.

In America, there have also been countless cases of people with learning difficulties being wrongly imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit too. I've seen for example, interviews with suspects where the officer is clearly leading the suspect to get the answer he/she wants. This would not be admissable as evidence in the UK.

[TheCat]

I agree that the sentence handed to Brock Turner seems abhorrent, and a failure of the justice system. However, we should also recognize that society at large has condemned this sentence, all the media are talking about it, open letters from congressmen/women and from the VP of the USA. SO at least society at large does not accept this as justice, even if the judge in this case did. Not saying its right in any way, and hopefully will be adjusted on appeal, but it would be worse if we all just shrugged our shoulders.

[Loz]

Medusa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Medusa Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > ...and you'd be spot-on.

> > >

> > > Neither do women, by and large.

> >

> > There was too many double negatives in the OP.

> Do

> > you mean women get more unfair leniency in the

> > criminal justice system?

>

>

> No. I was befuddled by the wording of the OP,

> despite decoding what (I assumed) the poster

> meant.

>

> I meant that 'justice' is not meted out so much

> according to the crime as according to the

> status/privilege of the person who is

> charged/convicted.

>

> I know of plenty of middle-class, white people who've dodged getting charged/convicted/sentenced

> to custodial time, along with references to their 'hitherto good character', etc. Meanwhile women

> are locked up for crimes of poverty, by and large (shoplifting, unpaid parking fines) and minority

> ethnic people are locked up in such numbers that you'd be forgiven for thinking they have been

> convicted of the crime of not being white.

Though stats show that women are less likely to get custodial sentences and, when they do, get lower jail sentences for the same crime. If you want the least possible punishment for a crime, be a white woman.

[Otta]

TheCat Wrote:

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> I agree that the sentence handed to Brock Turner

> seems abhorrent, and a failure of the justice

> system. However, we should also recognize that

> society at large has condemned this sentence, all

> the media are talking about it, open letters from

> congressmen/women and from the VP of the USA. SO

> at least society at large does not accept this as

> justice, even if the judge in this case did. Not

> saying its right in any way, and hopefully will be

> adjusted on appeal, but it would be worse if we

> all just shrugged our shoulders.

Also, in the past a young man could have been given years in prison, but his face wouldn't have been known outside of a small circle.

Brock Turner's face is now known around the world. I don't have any sympathy for him or his stupid father, but I must admit I've felt slightly uncomfortable about the modern day "justice system" that is social media.