Despicable Ruritanianism

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Possibly for the reporting requirements, but the ID card matter was very much publicly debated.

[maxxi]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

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I do find it interesting that no-one

> was up in arms when the requirement was imposed on

> the 3CNs.

>

>

> I have 3CN friends who have been treated like

> second-class members of society for some time.

what is a 3CN? (if you will excuse my lack of u.t.d knowledge of a.a.f.t's.)

[Earl Aelfheah]

Ive never hear of this. What is 3CN and what's been imposed?

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Sorry - should have made that clearer. 3CN is short-hand for third-country national (i.e. citizen of a country outside the EU). There are a number of restrictions already in place for them, including:

- firms need to maintain records of how many 3CNs, including regularly checking the visa status of those staff.

- having an ID card (separate to their passport) which includes stuff like their fingerprints.

- not being able to get a job unless they are more qualified than the EU candidates applying. In practice, I've got several 3CN friends who have had companies refuse to even look at their job applications because they were 3CN.

- depending on the visa, not being entitled to benefits even if they have been working here for years.

I believe that these requirements don't apply when they get indefinite leave to remain (step before becoming a British citizen).

All of these requirements were introduced a while back, mostly under Labour governments. I don't mention that to defend the Tories, just to point out that this kind of policy is bi-partisan. We've had a two tier society with regards to certain foreigners for a long time.

*Edited to correct typos

[????]

Er, i'm scratching my head here but isn't all that fairly standard in most countries of the world - I think most existing EU countries have something similar; I think a US Green Card is similar - unless you have completely free borders and free movement that sounds pretty reasonable?

[JohnL]

May can't lose

She delivers hard Brexit and will continually say that's what the population voted for due to concerns about immigration taking preference over economics.

If it fails, it was the people that wanted it, if it succeeds she did it.

[jaywalker]

???? Wrote:

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> Er, i'm scratching my head here but isn't all that

> fairly standard in most countries of the world - I

> think most existing EU countries have something

> similar; I think a US Green Card is similar -

> unless you have completely free borders and free

> movement that sounds pretty reasonable?

I very much think that is what Amber Rudd thought before putting it in her briefing notes. Where's the harm in that? After all, we are leaving the EU and without compromise, so EU workers are now just 'alien' (despite them being here under Treaty).

Then her brother - who objected strongly and in my view courageously to her language - had her 'scratching her head', and the Financial Times (oh those supporters of stupid cosmopolitan liberalism) published one of the most scathing leading articles today on her and May that I have ever read (where indeed is wealth created in the UK?) but she really thinks it is 'fairly standard', and (again, very perplexingly and they must just be stupid) foreign countries are widely reported (although not in the Daily Mail) as worrying what the f... is going on in the UK at the moment.

And later today (oh, how I love politics) a government spokesperson (having presumably scratched their head) announces they have 'no intention' of doing anything at all that sounds so 'pretty reasonable'.

[????]

Calm down, take a deep breathe and stop getting into a 'Daily Mail' type frenzy of Rightousness. My post was about this - P.O.U.S twc"s post. It was pointing out that these arrangements for 3CNs are pretty commonplace in most countries and that was all - I wasn't saying this was fine for EU citizens or Amber Rudd was being reasonable. You seriously need to read what people are saying before you jump to conclusions.

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry - should have made that clearer. 3CN is

> short-hand for third-country national (i.e.

> citizen of a country outside the EU). There are a

> number of restrictions already in place for them,

> including:

>

> - firms need to maintain records of how many 3CNs,

> including regularly checking the visa status of

> those staff.

> - having an ID card (separate to their passport)

> which includes stuff like their fingerprints.

> - not being able to get a job unless they are more

> qualified than the EU candidates applying. In

> practice, I've got several 3CN friends who have

> had companies refuse to even look at their job

> applications because they were 3CN.

> - depending on the visa, not being entitled to

> benefits even if they have been working here for

> years.

>

> I believe that these requirements don't apply when

> they get indefinite leave to remain (step before

> becoming a British citizen).

>

> All of these requirements were introduced a while

> back, mostly under Labour governments. I don't

> mention that to defend the Tories, just to point

> out that this kind of policy is bi-partisan. We've

> had a two tier society with regards to certain

> foreigners for a long time.

>

>

> *Edited to correct typos

In fact, I'll remind you what I said earlier in this thread and has now come to pass:

Except there won't be a policy and it never was put forward as a policy -it was just a stupid idea by Amber Rudd that has been buried. People are just misinformed and hysterical - and the internet just spreads this kind of crap like wildfire.

so you can withdraw your 'pretty reasonable' dig for starters. - when in fact I called it a 'stupid idea'.

[jaywalker]

Glad we both agree. I certainly apologise to you. In mitigation (only), the post thread topic.

[????]

jaywalker Wrote:

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> Glad we both agree. I certainly apologise to you.

> In mitigation (only), the post thread topic.

No problem - sometimes threads and mini-threads get lost in the meta one!

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

They are relatively common. What is your point, Pounds?

[????]

My point was that, that they are relatively common....

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

I grasped that was what you were saying, but what point are you making in the context of the discussion? I'm stuggling to see the relevance.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

I should say the relevance to the point I was making...

[????]

I was just saying that these:

- firms need to maintain records of how many 3CNs, including regularly checking the visa status of those staff.

- having an ID card (separate to their passport) which includes stuff like their fingerprints.

- not being able to get a job unless they are more qualified than the EU candidates applying. In practice, I've got several 3CN friends who have had companies refuse to even look at their job applications because they were 3CN.

- depending on the visa, not being entitled to benefits even if they have been working here for years.

Were relatively standard (with slight differences) for most countries' 3CNs - I think a US Greencard is very similar for eg?

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Yes I agree (although many of these requirements are more strict than other English-speaking counties), but wasn't sure what that had to do with my point - I was saying that what people are saying is awful for EU nationals already happens to 3CNs, and was imposed with little outcry at the time.

[JohnL]

Said in todays PMQs

"Angus Robertson notes that May put advertising vans on the streets "telling foreigners to go home".

Will she confirm that the intention of her government is still to go ahead with the registration of foreign workers but we shouldn't worry because it'll be kept secret?

May responds that Mr Robertson "should have listened" to previous answers and point-blank refuses to answer the question."

[JohnL]

It's pretty obvious to me that the rules on Brexit are

1.Priority is controlling borders/movement of people.

2.Economy/free market/trade is best effort when the above rule is not broken.

I may be wrong :)

[Earl Aelfheah]

Despite assertions that Brexit wasn't just about immigration, when you probe, it does indeed appear to be the key issue. At the least it seems to be the take away point for May. So the economy comes second.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Once again, the Tories show they can't be trusted with the economy.

[Jenny1]

There seems to be this weird anti-business, anti-trade streak in the Conservatives. Can keen students of British history tell me where that comes from? On the face of it it appears to be paradoxical. But there's no denying it. Are we re-playing some long forgotten eighteenth century conflict? None of this belongs to the twenty first century, that's for sure.

[JohnL]

Brexit debate (no vote):

"Nicky Morgan, the former education secretary, intervenes to quote the 2015 Tory manifesto saying "we say yes to the single market"."

[JohnL]

Hilary Benn says EU citizens will take offence at being called Cards and iNews has found a few.

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/eu-citizens-living-uk-express-upset-liam-fox-describes-negotiating-card/

[????]

Jenny1 Wrote:

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> There seems to be this weird anti-business,

> anti-trade streak in the Conservatives. Can keen

> students of British history tell me where that

> comes from? On the face of it it appears to be

> paradoxical. But there's no denying it. Are we

> re-playing some long forgotten eighteenth century

> conflict? None of this belongs to the twenty first

> century, that's for sure.

This is happening globally - people buying into the rubbish that 'neo-liberalism' and Global Free trade are Free Markets are impoverishing us all. I despair when I look at what our two major parties offer on the economy, infact on anything.

[miga]

JohnL Wrote:

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> It's pretty obvious to me that the rules on Brexit

> are

>

> 1.Priority is controlling borders/movement of

> people.

> 2.Economy/free market/trade is best effort when

> the above rule is not broken.

>

> I may be wrong :)

I hope that this is just chatter to win votes, but they understand the real effect of going through with the tough talk.