Despicable Ruritanianism

[Blah Blah]

Is this the typical rationale of a brexit voter?

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/which-eu-law-are-you-looking-forward-to-losing/

[Jenny1]

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> I hope that this is just chatter to win votes, but

> they understand the real effect of going through

> with the tough talk.

I don't think we can count on it.

[Jenny1]

???? Wrote:

>

> This is happening globally - people buying into

> the rubbish that 'neo-liberalism' and Global Free

> trade are Free Markets are impoverishing us all.

> I despair when I look at what our two major

> parties offer on the economy, infact on anything.

Absolutely. But even if one worries that globalisation causes painful economic shifts for some sectors of the Western electorate, then it seems utterly perverse to adopt policies that will exacerbate this. That's what I see the Conservatives doing at the moment. Accelerating us down a slope marked 'Decline of the West - this way'. And I wondered if it had to do with very old (ie 200 year old) Tory ideas of feudalism and protectionism.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

I'd have thought that laissez-faire and free-market economic theories were more the hallmark of Conservativism, which aren't inconsistent with globalisation.

I have some sympathy with those who aren't keen on globalisation, but note they seem very happy to benefit from the pensions that depend on global markets. I have no sympathy for anti-intellectualism that seems to often go with it though.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Laissez-faire, free-market conservatism (or neo-liberalism) has always been at odds with traditional conservatism. May seems to be fo the latter camp

[Blah Blah]

Both are the product of neo-classical economic thinking though, so can amount to the same thing in many respects.

[????]

I'm beginning to miss Cameron & Osbourne :)

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

I saw a great post recently: "Come back Dave. Even the pig forgives you."

[JohnL]

Cameron's not coming back, Blair was talking about it.

Maybe he fancies a war.

[Jenny1]

Interesting what people have said about the different wings and roots of Conservatism. It does seem that there's a really obvious ideological split emerging in the party. I know they've been arguing about Europe forever - but somehow this seems to go deeper than that. TM's bunch are weirdly reckless.

[Blah Blah]

Also, the U-turn on allowing a parliamentary debate, came of of threatened revolt from May's own backbenchers. The divisions within the Tory party are as fierce as ever. This is why a parliamentary vote has been ruled out by May, because she knows full well that it is her own party that will sabotage Brexit.

[JohnL]

Jenny1 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Interesting what people have said about the

> different wings and roots of Conservatism. It does

> seem that here's a really obvious ideological

> split emerging in the party. I know they've been

> arguing about Europe forever - but somehow this

> seems to go deeper than that. TM's bunch are

> weirdly reckless.

This article seems to say Theresa May is a Statist

and wants to intervene in things Tories normally don't

intervene in. She has a reputation as a control freak

too.

There's something rather socialist about her wanting to

control borders and markets.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/10/brexit-was-libertarian-dream-it-has-become-statist-one

[Blah Blah]

She is paradoxical. To the right of Thatcher but also a 'wet' on some issues.

[Earl Aelfheah]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There's something rather socialist about her

> wanting to

> control borders and markets.

It's not socialist, it's authoritarian.

[JohnL]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > There's something rather socialist about her

> > wanting to

> > control borders and markets.

>

> It's not socialist, it's authoritarian.

As a teenager new in University I remember saying to someone

"who are those creepy people over there"

Someone said 'The Monday Club' and that's what I associate as

the Authoritarian wing of the Tories :(

[Jenny1]

I agree with some of her domestic policy - ie a relaxation of this manic need to balance the books which has crippled public services and welfare provision. But what I can't get is her apparent massive blind-spot over the single market. It would seem fairly obvious that it's been crucial in ensuring our somewhat shaky economic recovery after the crash of 2008. Turning our backs on any element of access to it jeopardises that recovery and therefore our ability to fund public services. I think most Conservatives would agree that not prioritising that is diagnosably bonkers.

[Blah Blah]

But they think we will still have access to it without all the conditions attached. Or at least, that's what they keep telling us when pressed on the matter.

[Jenny1]

But that itself doesn't sound sane really, does it?

[jaywalker]

A 'senior civil servant' last weekend was quoted as saying they 'are away with the fairies'. True dat.

[Seabag]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm beginning to miss Cameron & Osbourne :)

Yeah me too, at least they mainly targeted the poor

I felt way richer with those 2 cunts around

[Alan Medic]

If access to the single market costs the same or similar to being an EU member (as I've read/heard it might somewhere), then at least you have control of your borders and laws. Just no ?350m a week for the NHS.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Except that the EU is unlikely to accept single market access and limitations in EU migration. Look at what happened when Switzerland tried to restrict immigration.

So we either get something that is pretty much the same as being in the EU, without any ablity to influence the legislation we have to comply with or we lose at least some sections of the financial markets and, depending on what happens with passporting, potentially London ceases to be a major hub. Roll on redundancies.

As one trader said to me many years ago "Sh*t runs downhill".

[Blah Blah]

To answer Alan though, access to the single market only, without full membership would cost us about half of what we pay at the moment, athough we'd probably lose our rebate, so probably around 60% of what we pay at present.

[JohnL]

Donald Tusk said it's Hard Brexit or No Brexit. Not sure he should even try analysing Boris.

"To all who believe in it, I propose a simple experiment. Buy a cake, eat it, and see if it is still there on the plate.

"The brutal truth is that Brexit will be a loss for all of us. There will be no cakes on the table. For anyone. There will be only salt and vinegar."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37650077

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

I can't see how they have much choice. Any softer option is inviting further seperatism, particularly given the rise of fascist-like nationalism in other EU countries.