Alleyns...doing their bit for the community?

[andrewc]

I wonder if anyone here considers the Alleyns Hall, the hall that Alleyn's college rents out, to be expensive. They apparently keep all front of house takings as part of the deal.

Are they fulfilling a charitable remit to provide the local community with accessible services?

[Vestii]

Removed in light of information recieved

[DaveR]

There's a lot of confusion about the charitable purposes of public schools. The trustees are bound by the purposes of the governing document. A court case some years ago established that, where the charitable purposes relate solely to the provision of education, then providing access to facilities to the local community will not only not qualify as charitable but may be in breach of the terms of the trust.

[Vestii]

In order to be able to hang on to charity tax breaks Public schools have to make clear in their annual report and accounts how many state school children they have helped by "sharing" the facilities.

Removed in light of information recieved

[DaveR]

"In order to be able to hang on to charity tax breaks Public schools have to make clear in their annual report and accounts how many state school children they have helped by "sharing" the facilities."

There are lots of different ways for educational charities to fulfil the public benefit requirement. Guidance is here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charging-for-services/charging-for-services-illustrative-examples-of-benefits-for-the-poor

I have no idea what Alleyn's do and what they disclose in their annual report but I assume they comply with the guidance.

[James Barber]

Hi Vestii,

The change to licensing laws would make it difficult to operate a pay bar by an organization not related to the licence holder. They can't break the law. But if someone can think of a smart way round this I'll happily talk to the bursar.

Generally the school reports they support the ocumminty - http://www.alleyns.org.uk/page.aspx?id=110

Hi andrewc,

How much do they charge to use the theatre?

[kristymac1]

Hi James,

Wouldn't it be possible for the organisation to simply apply for a TENS licence to sell alcohol at their specific event? This is what we do all the time at school events which involve the sale of alcohol - very easy to do. Whether there is a difference applying for a TENS licence for a licenced venue I'm not sure....

James Barber Wrote:

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> Hi Vestii,

> The change to licensing laws would make it

> difficult to operate a pay bar by an organization

> not related to the licence holder. They can't

> break the law. But if someone can think of a smart

> way round this I'll happily talk to the bursar.

>

> Generally the school reports they support the

> ocumminty -

> http://www.alleyns.org.uk/page.aspx?id=110

>

> Hi andrewc,

> How much do they charge to use the theatre?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Legally, they're probably fulfilling their duty. In spirit - no, there is no justification for Dulwich public schools being charities in my opinion.

[James Barber]

Hi kristymac1, andrews,

After some digging this is what I found.

Dulwich Hamlet hired the Alleyns theatre for free. They were charged for time of staff hired by the hour to do the lighting and sound at cost.

Alleyns do now run all bars at the theatre, some users hadn't left things correctly, but again any profits are deducted from the above costs.

So Dulwich Hamlet to hire a 400 seat theatre for three nights with professional light and sound were charged net ?379.

I also asked about playing fields - Heber use them Thursday am, new Harris primary school Tuesday am - every week after half-term.

[Vestii]

I have then received misinformation and I withdraw my comments.

[redjam]

Hmm, do Heber use the playing fields every Thursday am? News to me and my Heber kids. I thought they got them once a year for sports day (actually just a morning).

[kristymac1]

Exactly my thoughts...

redjam Wrote:

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> Hmm, do Heber use the playing fields every

> Thursday am? News to me and my Heber kids. I

> thought they got them once a year for sports day

> (actually just a morning).

[rendelharris]

I assumed James' statement "every week after half term" means it's a new arrangement beginning in November?

[Caesi01]

that's news to me as well.

redjam Wrote:

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> Hmm, do Heber use the playing fields every

> Thursday am? News to me and my Heber kids. I

> thought they got them once a year for sports day

> (actually just a morning).

[redjam]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> I assumed James' statement "every week after half

> term" means it's a new arrangement beginning in

> November?

Possibly. It's not been announced by Heber if that's the case.

[uncleglen]

Independent Schools do their bit for the tax payer...http://www.isc.co.uk/about-isc/school-charities-and-tax/

[DaveR]

"Legally, they're probably fulfilling their duty. In spirit - no, there is no justification for Dulwich public schools being charities in my opinion."

Is that just the Dulwich schools, or all public schools? And is it because you object to public schools per se?

I genuinely don't have a strong view on this, but being a bit pedantic about it, whether a body is a charity or not is a legal question, and it has to be, because important legal consequences flow from it. There are lots of charities that, in my opinion, don't do much public good, and some that I think are basically wrong in their whole raison d'etre, but to deny that they are charities seems a bit pointless.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

What DaveR said. A legal charity is not the same as the common usage of the word charity. If it was called a fundleswop instead, would it raise the same ire?

[Mick Mac]

if you go back far enough education was provided by private tutor arrangements in the home of wealthy families

17th century - Edward Alleyn Gods Gift ... provided public schooling - this was seen as charitable at the time as he gave up of his own money.

I'd imagine the charitable status has been in place since then - it's not a charity for the poor, more of a not for profit, although the schools do have to provide bursaries etc to those who cant pay fees, presumably therefore meeting their current day charitable obligations to a certain extent that way.

[rendelharris]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> I'd imagine the charitable status has been in

> place since then - it's not a charity for the

> poor, more of a not for profit, although the

> schools do have to provide bursaries etc to those

> who cant pay fees, presumably therefore meeting

> their current day charitable obligations to a

> certain extent that way.

Indeed, though it's questionable as to how much they're helping the poor - most bursaries go to pay part of the fees for those who can't afford the full amount - for Eton financial help is available for those with a household income of less than ?80K, at Dulwich College it's ?60K. So it's more of a helping hand for the middle classes than fully funded places for the genuinely poor, but it still counts as part justification of the charitable status.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

You don't need to help the poor to be a charity in the legal sense. Again, people are conflating the common usage of "charity" with a legal charity.

[rendelharris]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

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> You don't need to help the poor to be a charity in

> the legal sense. Again, people are conflating the

> common usage of "charity" with a legal charity.

Didn't think I was P.O.U.S! Rather making the point that although they aren't helping the poor they're still entitled to charitable status under the rules. Nothing smoky about it - whether the rules should be changed is of course an entirely different matter.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Sorry - clearly read too quickly and with too little thought.

[rendelharris]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

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> Sorry - clearly read too quickly and with too

> little thought.

Not at all, no offence taken!

[Mick Mac]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You don't need to help the poor to be a charity in

> the legal sense. Again, people are conflating the

> common usage of "charity" with a legal charity.

Who are these "people" you talk about?