Post-fact world

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

I'm not cut out for it, I've decided. Where there always so many people prepared to make random sh&t up and assert it as fact?

[DulwichFox]

Ha Ha Ha Ha.... Ha Ha Ha Ha..

They all laughed at Christopher Columbus

When he said the world was round

They all laughed when Edison recorded sound..

Thank God we have people willing to take a stand whilst those around them mock..

Without them nothing would ever be acheived.

DulwichFox

[JohnL]

"You're not laughing now"

[BrandNewGuy]

In the past, I suspect those who were ignorant of something kept quiet, even if they harboured irrational ideas about whatever it was. Now everyone is their own publicist and mouthpiece, with an opinion about everything, even in areas they're utterly ignorant of. I don't think people are more stupid or irrational than they used to be, they're just more audible. Which is really b****y annoying.

[Loz]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Where there always so many people prepared to make random sh&t

> up and assert it as fact?

I think that, if we have learnt anything from the Brexit vote, the US election plus just about every lobby and pressure group ever, the answer is... "because it works".

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Politicians making stuff up is nothing new. It's the new levels of delusion on the Clapham omnibus that disturbs me.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ha Ha Ha Ha.... Ha Ha Ha Ha..

>

> They all laughed at Christopher Columbus

> When he said the world was round

> They all laughed when Edison recorded sound..

>

> Thank God we have people willing to take a stand

> whilst those around them mock..

> Without them nothing would ever be acheived.

>

> DulwichFox

You are missing the point Foxy. Those people all didn't rely on supposition but supported their views with evidence. As opposed to making crap up because it fits your world view.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

BNG, I suspect you're right. I still can't quite fathom whether they are lazy, thick or genuinely delusional though. I mean, we live in the age of the internet - how hard is it to even make a basic attempt at verifying a belief?

[DulwichFox]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DulwichFox Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Ha Ha Ha Ha.... Ha Ha Ha Ha..

> >

> > They all laughed at Christopher Columbus

> > When he said the world was round

> > They all laughed when Edison recorded sound..

> >

> > Thank God we have people willing to take a

> stand

> > whilst those around them mock..

> > Without them nothing would ever be acheived.

> >

> > DulwichFox

>

>

> You are missing the point Foxy. Those people all

> didn't rely on supposition but supported their

> views with evidence. As opposed to making crap up

> because it fits your world view.

So what crap have I made up. ?

I believe you may be refering to a previous thread. Where I refered to a time when the UK was 'Great'

The Ship building.. Coal.. Steel.. Industries. A time before we joined the E.U. A time when WE made up the rules.

Is it not true we have lost all these industries.. My grandfather in South Wales worked in the mines..

My uncle in S. Wales was a Ship Builder. I'm talking facts..

These industries have gone forever. We do not need the E.U. to tell us to run our new industies and Technologies.

We do not need The E.U. to hold our hands..

D.F

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Well, since you are self-identifying as one of the folk who just make stuff up - where is your evidence for the statement that the whole world is in recession?

[rendelharris]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ha Ha Ha Ha.... Ha Ha Ha Ha..

>

> They all laughed at Christopher Columbus

> When he said the world was round

> They all laughed when Edison recorded sound..

>

> Thank God we have people willing to take a stand

> whilst those around them mock..

> Without them nothing would ever be acheived.

>

> DulwichFox

Just as a side note, nobody laughed at Columbus because he said the world was round - the fact had been generally accepted for 2,000 odd years - and he wasn't trying to prove it was: he was mocked for saying he could reach India by sailing west, as his calculations of the earth's circumference were way out (a fact he tried to cover up by naming the land he did bump into the Indies...).

Just shows, even songs can be part of the post-fact world!

[Salsaboy]

What do you mean, 'the earth is round'?

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ha Ha Ha Ha.... Ha Ha Ha Ha..

>

> They all laughed at Christopher Columbus

> When he said the world was round

[Loz]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> They all laughed at Christopher Columbus

> When he said the world was round

> They all laughed when Edison recorded sound..

Or, as Bob Monkhouse once said, "People laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian. Well, they're not laughing now".

[rendelharris]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DulwichFox Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > They all laughed at Christopher Columbus

> > When he said the world was round

> > They all laughed when Edison recorded sound..

>

> Or, as Bob Monkhouse once said, "People laughed at

> me when I said I wanted to be a comedian. Well,

> they're not laughing now".

His best line - indeed one of the best ever!

[DulwichFox]

Salsaboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What do you mean, 'the earth is round'?

>

> DulwichFox Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Ha Ha Ha Ha.... Ha Ha Ha Ha..

> >

> > They all laughed at Christopher Columbus

> > When he said the world was round

I have never said the World is round. The World (Earth) is an Oblate spheroid..

1-2-3-4-5.. waits for comments from usual suspects..

Foxy.

[Henry_17]

POUS,

I suspect there weren't always so many people willing to do that, since now a far greater proportion of people will recieve news via social media rather than traditional media, which has been shown to be potentially highly unreliable as a source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/10/12/facebook-has-repeatedly-trended-fake-news-since-firing-its-human-editors/

[jaywalker]

I think this is quite complex.

Belief in facts as presented to self-evidence was dubious enough with first philosophy. The usual clich? but its good: the bent stick in the water. By the early C19th it was no longer even a possibility if you were at least semi-educated.

What for example was mesmerism (I'm reading Winter's excellent book)? So for a long time claims were made to a 'magnetic power' - the magnetism transferring from the hands of the mesmerist to the subject. A lot of money in it from the gullible. But people, in rejecting this, did not see the auto-suggestion that we can see (i.e. hypnotism is a later category of understanding).

Or psychoanalysis - #its a fraud#. Yet people certainly have hysterical symptoms (speaking personally, you understand).

I think that it got far more problematic in the C20th - the quotidian is false. Our everyday sense of time, space, substance are all errors or misrecognitions even according to A-level physics. Where then would one find 'a fact'? In a children's book or unsophisticated religious text perhaps: nowhere serious.

[Jenny1]

I agree with those who say that social media has a lot to do with it. I don't think that's just because people's sources of information have become limited and self-reinforcing, but because social media is an environment which tends to exaggerate the value of the emotional, personal and particular over the intellectual and general. So feelings matter more than facts.

I also think that we're living through a 'populist' age which seeks simple answers to complex questions. I'd maintain that has a lot to do with the fall-out from 2008. Many people in the US and UK have been left wondering if 'the powers that be' are willing, or even able, to protect them from insecurity and instability. 'Radical', easy, non-factual solutions become more attractive under those circumstances.

[JohnL]

DulwichFox Wrote:

> Is it not true we have lost all these industries..

> My grandfather in South Wales worked in the

> mines..

> My uncle in S. Wales was a Ship Builder. I'm

> talking facts..

>

> These industries have gone forever. We do not need

> the E.U. to tell us to run our new industies and

> Technologies.

> We do not need The E.U. to hold our hands..

>

> D.F

Port Talbot steelworks is still there, just.

I couldn't imagine going over that hill (Pyle?) on the M4 and not seeing it.

[JohnL]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > DulwichFox Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> >

> > > They all laughed at Christopher Columbus

> > > When he said the world was round

> > > They all laughed when Edison recorded

> sound..

> >

> > Or, as Bob Monkhouse once said, "People laughed

> at

> > me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.

> Well,

> > they're not laughing now".

>

> His best line - indeed one of the best ever!

Very good :)

Took me 5 seconds

[TheCat]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In the past, I suspect those who were ignorant of

> something kept quiet, even if they harboured

> irrational ideas about whatever it was. Now

> everyone is their own publicist and mouthpiece,

> with an opinion about everything, even in areas

> they're utterly ignorant of. I don't think people

> are more stupid or irrational than they used to

> be, they're just more audible. Which is really

> b****y annoying.

This. times 1000. Great comment.

Social media gives people a mouthpiece, and somehow people think their views have more credibility when they 'speak' on these platforms.

We truly live in a high opinion, low information age.

[JohnL]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This. times 1000. Great comment.

>

> Social media gives people a mouthpiece, and

> somehow people think their views have more

> credibility when they 'speak' on these platforms.

>

> We truly live in a high opinion, low information

> age.

So the trick is to cut out/block the cr*p

[Otta]

Good example of this recently.

I'd taken my kids to a birthday party, and a couple of mums were chatting about Donald Trump. One of them said she'd seen a quote of his from the 90s where he said something like "if I ever ran for president it would be for the republicans because their supporters are stupid and easily manipulated".

I'd seen the same thing, but I looked it up on snoops and sure enough there is no prof he ever said that. He certainly never said it in the magazine that it was claimed he'd said it in.

Now don't get me wrong, I am all for anything that harms Trump (vile man), but I did find it interesting that this made up quote was now being discussed by two intelligent women, and was basically now accepted as fact.

I am sure I've swallowed a few "facts" in my time too.

I think the trick is to just ignore anything that you see on a meme on social media.

Sorry if I'm repeating what has already been said, haven't had time to read all the posts.

[Otta]

This site is always useful for fact checking

http://www.snopes.com/

[Otta]

Here's the Trump thing I was talking about, as an example.

http://www.snopes.com/1998-trump-people-quote/