Its gonna be President Trump ..!!! ??

[rendelharris]

Excellent, so much so worth actually sharing the text:

PEOPLE who disagree with Donald Trump and Nigel Farage are responsible for their success rather than the gullible idiots who vote for them, the media have decided.

Commentators believe Trump?s victory and Brexit could have been avoided if everyone stopped having reasonable views and agreed with mad, barely coherent grievances.

Guardian columnist Donna Sheridan said: ?If tolerant people had listened to mental Trump supporters they wouldn?t have voted for him due to some magical process I can?t explain.

?It?s the same with Brexit. We should have been saying, ?There there, it?s not your fault you have to be racist because you haven?t got an amazing job and the Polish shop makes you angry.?

?Liberals like me may as well have marched Trump and Brexit supporters to the polling station and made them vote with a gun at the their head, but obviously we?d never do that because we?re too nice.?

Political pundit Tom Booker said: ?We need to listen to ordinary people, even if it?s hard to work out what their point is except that all politicians are basically criminals and we won the war.?

[Loz]

Is it really too hard to understand?

One of the things left-wing people often say is they have "empathy", yet this particular piece of empathy just seems to elude them. One of the other things left-wing people often say is they try and fight "hate". Yet, this name-calling is just based in hate.

If you take a group of people and, instead of listening to their issues, tell them they a stupid and racist and sexist and gullible idiots every other name under the sun every time the dare mention what worries them (be that a valid fear or not), then they will turn away from you. They will stop talking to you. And also vote against what you tell them is a good thing. And, given our electoral systems, a mere few percentage of people turning away can cause massive effects.

We saw it with Brexit. We saw it with Trump. And yet the lesson still doesn't seem to have been learned. And unless we stop trying to silence and shame people it will keep happening. Unless we stop trying to control what can and can't be debated, it will keep happening.

I am still heartbroken we are leaving the EU and I am seriously worried about the next four years under Trump (although Pence worries me more). Yet if we don't come together and talk more and people not try and control what is 'acceptable' to debate then we're in for a lot more.

[rendelharris]

No, Loz, what's really to hard to understand is that the left wing, for want of a better name, campaign for one thing, then when people vote for another thing everyone says it's the left wing's fault. The reason Brexit passed, the reason Trump was elected, was because of the right wing's successful campaigns. The people who are responsible, for better or for worse, for Brexit's and Trump's success are the people who voted for them. That's how democracy works, everyone has their own vote and does with it as they wish. If people stand up and say look, I don't want racism, division and hatred then it's absurd to blame them if people vote for the very things they said they were against.

Who, precisely, is "trying to control what can and can't be debated"? The left wing agenda is very much more ignored and/or ridiculed in most of the press than the right.

ETA: Also, as I've said on this thread before, I think it's deeply patronising to assume that people are such idiots that they didn't know what they were doing when they cast their votes. They did, they made the choice, they won. Again, for better or for worse, they're the ones who chose this outcome, not the people who asked them not to.

[Loz]

> No, Loz, what's really to hard to understand is that the left wing, for want of a better name, campaign

> for one thing, then when people vote for another thing everyone says it's the left wing's fault.

Well, that just means the left are failing to connect, doesn't it? And failing to connect with a bunch of people that were part of their core group not so long ago.

> Who, precisely, is "trying to control what can and can't be debated"? The left wing agenda

> is very much more ignored and/or ridiculed in most of the press than the right.

Call them shy Tories, quiet Brexiters or timid Trumpers, we continually see people who don't feel they can stand up and declare their hand. Because they know they will get abused for it. As an example, I've heard many Labour people quite proudly say "I f***ing hate Tories". How is that helpful?

People don't feel they can say what worries them. They have quietly simmered for years and now they are standing up and finding themselves in the majority. So, we can sit back and call them more names or stop and try to actually let them talk and maybe find a better compromise solution than the one they are wildly and desperately grabbing for.

The guy in that video I posted absolutely nailed it. Either we - from the centre left to us centrists to the centre right - change our tactics and how we debate or we get used to some pretty terrifying election results.

[Earl Aelfheah]

So the right launch a really nasty and divisive campaign backed by a virilant tabloid press and it's the lefts fault that we end up with Trump? Oh, and if you criticise him, or suggest that his rhetoric is that of a bully and a bigot (even though it self evidently is), that's just pushing more voters into his arms! Best to keep the criticism to ta minimum, accept the 'will of the people' (around a quarter of them anyway), and acknowledge that it's actually the fault of those who oppose him.

There are people who have legitimate grievances, but voting in Trump is shameful after the things he's said and we shouldn't try to appease him or his supporters. Trump and his supporters repeatedly promote 'straight talking', well we should give them it.

The right created the tea party movement, bill o'reilly and Trump. They've enabled this man and decent Republicans should be (and in many cases are) ashamed.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I thought the right were all for personal responsibility and owning ones own problems etc. Trumps your guy. Stop blaming everyone else for what you've created.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Loz, I know someone who used to work with that chap when he worked for Putin's TV network. He's excellent at delivering very right-wing/fascist propaganda disguised as "common sense".

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is it really too hard to understand?

>

> One of the things left-wing people often say is.... Yet, this name-calling is just

> based in hate.

> I am still heartbroken we are leaving the EU and I

> am seriously worried about the next four years

> under Trump (although Pence worries me more). Yet

> if we don't come together and talk more and people

> not try and control what is 'acceptable' to debate

> then we're in for a lot more.

In which case, I beg of you to lead the way and stop attributing opinions and motives to "The Left". I'm not suggesting you are personally doing this, but this whole "Blame the Left"/"Let's undo PC" is being used to justify some utterly frightening points of view on the extreme right.

I know there are left-wing voters who do the same thing (and I have been spending as much time as I can talking to friends in the Labour party to see if they can do something about trying to change this dialogue) but that shouldn't be a reason to do this.

If you are on the right of centre, claim your ground back. Stop letting the more extreme right-wing points of view dictate the agenda and unwittingly becoming a tool in the same propaganda that is being used to justify stuff like holocaust-denial (which someone did to me yesterday).

The only way we're going to get out of this is if we starting listening to each other.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's interesting, whenever 'the left' has tried to speak to the disenfranchised, talked about inequality, suggested a fairer distribution of wealth, or a better deal for those who have been left behind by globalisation - they've been told to be realistic, to stop trying to turn the clock back and accused of being 'extremists', pursuing the 'politics of envy'. In short, they're told to tack to the right.

But guess what - shifting the centre of gravity ever rightwards brings the fringes ever closer to the mainstream and before you know it people like 'the Donald' are getting elected.

Now the more moderate 'right' are saying 'this is the lefts fault for listening to us, for not offering a counter narrative'... 'The left should have provided a counter weight to avoid the increasingly out of control lurch to the right. They should have done more to make themselves heard over our shrieking'.

...Or else it's 'the lefts' fault for 'closing down discussion of immigration'. Funny, but looking at the daily, rabid headlines put out by a sizable proportion of the press, the 'go home' vans our delightful PM authorised to drive through areas of high immigration and the attempts to paint our city's major as a dangerous Islamist (for just a few examples), one might be forgiven for thinking that actually it's open season on immigrants and minorities and has been for many, many years now).

I personally, can't believe the bleating on 'the right' of politics at the moment. They've used dog whistle politics, they've pandered to UKIP, they've taken advantage of the fear and division the right wing press have sowed for their own advantage, rather than challenging it. And now, they cry - it's not our fault, it's the people on the other side - they should have been more effective against us.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Never mind the hand wringing on the left, personally I think there should be calls for some soul searching on the right.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's like getting pissed, crashing the car and then saying "you know, I think there are some serious questions to be asked of the police here...they really should have beeen more effective at stopping me".

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Rahrah, my last sentence goes for everyone. You're doing exactly the same thing by attributing opinions to the "moderate right" or "the right" in general.

How on earth is another lecture about how "[insert political tribe here that isn't mine]" are doing the wrong thing helping?

Christ I get it that everyone is angry and unsettled, but I am SO sick of bloody tribalistic politics and sweeping generalisations. Why can't people show some grace?

[Earl Aelfheah]

I agree that it's not helpful, but frankly there is a lot of hypocrisy and I'm not yet ready to 'start the healing'

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Indeed - the hypocrisy is coming from both sides. Please don't start going on about taking responsibility unless you're prepared to take your own advice.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The tribal thing isn't helpful and there are many republicans / conservatives who are appalled by Trump as much as anyone. But when people start saying "it's the Lefts fault", well, its shows such a lack of self awareness that I find it hard not to play that game back.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

So you're doing exactly the same thing as them. What on earth does that achieve except allowing you to vent your anger at your perceived enemies? It's like watching children shout at each other.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I don't see where I've been hypocritical btw.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't see where I've been hypocritical btw.

And frankly that is exactly the problem. You are spending so much time focusing on what the other tribe is doing wrong that you can't see that you are behaving the same way in many respects. You are objecting to the right blaming the left for everything and yet you are doing exactly the same thing from the other direction.

There is an extremely complicated set of circumstances that have lead to where we are today. It is neither the right's nor the left's (as whole) fault - that's an incredibly huge oversimplification.

[????]

But people don't - it's not binary , it's not just one groups fault; but a narrative that ' the parties that claim to represent you working classes have failed you' is easy to say; because it does reflect a failure of the left in the US and here to listen to a whole bunch of their constituents,to patronise them and to insult them.

I dislike the left increasingly because I expect (ed) more, - but in the 'moderate' realms of politics you see the worst tribalism; identity politics; a whole load of unpleasantness and yet some kind of convinced moral superiority from the left. Most people in the centre right think the left are misguided; most people, even on the centre left think; the centre right are 'tory scum'....

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

I should say I also get how hard it is to rise above your anger and tribalism.

Unless a miracle happens out of Brexit, my family could be torn apart and I've experienced personal abuse based on my not being British in the past few months, so it is taking all my strength not to resort to them v us crap. But if I don't try, who will? I'm getting more and more despondent about the potential answer to that. Surely we're better than that, aren't we?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Except it wasn't tribalism I was cricising, it was people encouraging xenophobia and intollerance and then refusing to take responsibility for what comes of it.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

I give up :(

[Earl Aelfheah]

...and this is not a bad place to have a rant BTW.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Rants have ripples, Rahrah. And yours have sunk me.

[Mick Mac]

200 :)