Quietway junction - crowd funding (Dulwich Village)

[Bicknell]

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/dulwich-village-junction-alternative

Up to 95%.

Should make Southwark listen.

[gardnergirl]

If you are sceptical - as I was - that Dulwich Village could ever get back its heart and be more than a bottleneck junction, go to

before you make any comment here!

[Tessmo]

Thanks @gardnergirl - good to see this link again. It's hard to imagine driver behaviour changing - but a clip like this shows how it's possible.

[wulfhound]

.. but please watch David Hembrow's response (from the supposed cycling paradise of the Netherlands):

.. and read the comments below the first video (never thought I'd say that) e.g. from Tom Gardner:

'"Might is right" :( In Poynton the majority of cyclists illegally use the pavement, since they are afraid to share space with lorries and busses. In Ashford the more people use the shared space, the more changes they want. The shared space zealots declared success after interviewing a few people - but more careful observation and interviews of more people showed pedestrians were confined to the periphery. Don't trust those with a vested interest; don't even trust me. But do see http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/ add realise that the following statement from the abstract is fighting talk: "The authors conclude that some of the claims made on behalf of shared space have overstated the available evidence..."'

Again, to see how it works in practice without going all the way to Poynton (or Assen), I'd really recommend a trip to Seven Dials (Covent Garden) or Leonard Circus (Old Street). My personal view - as an unqualified observer, regular pedestrian/cyclist and occasional driver - is that "sharing" works well for young-ish adults (with good awareness and mobility, and for whom a being hit by a car doing 10mph will likely not be life-changing). Fashion-shoppers and tourists at Seven Dials, office workers and hipsters at Leonard Circus, they seem happy with it.

But in Dulwich we have a high proportion of young children and older people - both on foot and, in the case of the latter, some behind the wheel. I'm not convinced that intentionally sowing confusion and making people look in five directions at once is at all helpful if you're eight or 88.

[James Barber]

Hi wolfhound,

I would have thought the Poynton approach with perhaps the Goose Green zebra crossing approach would work well.

In 2006/7 we purchased a pedestrian audit through Living Street of Lordship Lane. One of the action points was putting a third zebra crossing on the only Goose Green roundabout arm without one. Broadly they work really well. Clearly the odd idiot ignore them. But you get that with traffic lights as well.

Would we want 12 year old kids cycling through - tricky comparing schemes here with Dutch or other European schemes where they have different traffic laws and who is responsible for any crash.

Either way, I'd encourage others to also donate to he crowfunding. we need to really kick the tyres and consider wider options for these key junctions/

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's hard to know what the right answer is there. It's a complicated junction. I'm no expert, but the proposal for 3 roundabouts seems a bit odd. I imagine it would just be more confusing / dangerous. I wonder if the real answer is not to close Calton Avenue tye court lane end and direct traffic round via (the currently closed) Gilkes Crescent left into Gilkes Place and onto Dulwich Village

[Tessmo]

I'm pretty sure there was no public support for road closures in the public consultation. (Mind you, two-thirds were against the design that became the official Southwark proposal...) The point of the alternative design, as far as I understand it, is to make traffic move slowly but continuously, which should mean much greater safety for cyclists and pedestrians. It all depends on the detail, but that's what the independent report is for.

[Tessmo]

@wolfhound Answering your earlier post, I don't think we're talking so much 'shared space' as 'low-speed environment'. Shared space, as far as I understand it, can mean no road markings and no separation of different kinds of traffic. In the alternative junction sketch, there's a cycle track. There are also zebra crossings, which work well at Goose Green - a busy junction with cars, cycles, pedestrians, vans, lorries and buses.

Nothing will happen with any alternative design at this junction unless it is safer for pedestrians and cyclists than Southwark's current official proposal. It's primarily a junction that's part of the Quietway, so it's got to be safe for inexperienced cyclists otherwise it's not fit for purpose.

147 people have contributed to the Just Giving page, and it's just ?20 off its target of ?4,000. So a lot of people are behind finding a solution that's safer for pedestrians and cyclists than Southwark's official one. It's come out of a 'Pedestrians Must Come First' campaign that's primarily thinking of all the schoolchildren who use this junction, so no one - no one - wants a junction that doesn't put small pedestrians first. Any sketch for an alternative idea is just a starting point - something to nudge Southwark into thinking about different possibilities.

Let's wait and see what the traffic consultants come up with. I'm not an expert, but I understand that there is a lot of data to show that there is better safety with low-speed environments than with traditional traffic lights, which encourage sudden spurts of speed.

How about contacting www.dulwichvillageforum.org.uk? Your views as a parent and a cyclist would be really valuable.

[bawdy-nan]

At school start and finish times there is an almost constant stream of children wanting to cross the road. I've seen the impatience of drivers snarled up and stopped by the lights or the valiant lollipop people. With no lights to indicate priority and with a constant stream of crossing at the proposed crossing points i'd be very worried that drivers would feel they had to push and nudge to make any progress and would race to get across in potential gaps in the child flow. .. it's a frightening prospect but one that would hopefully be considered in any analysis.

[Tessmo]

@ bawdy-nan

Yes, completely agree. School start and finish times have to be part of the analysis.

From my understanding of Southwark's current proposal, the number of schoolchildren/parents/buggies, etc that would be stopped hallway across the road - using the staggered crossings that were taken away at the Townley Road junction because they were so unpopular with parents and children - hadn't been measured. The number of children, and the times when they'd all be bunched up in the middle of the road waiting to cross, had apparently not been part of the analysis for the official proposal at all...

Yes, agree with you. Children must come first.

[Sally Eva]

"There are also zebra crossings, which work well at Goose Green "

I take it this is ironic. Take a look at this thread.

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1756172

[Tessmo]

Not ironic @Sally Eva. Maybe you're right, and the way zebra crossings are used at Goose Green could be improved. it would be good to look at this. But the idea is to have a low-speed environment - a design that makes everyone slow down.