A human-centric Lordship Lane

[louisiana]

Good points from Huguenot and Twirly.

Attitudes indeed may be down to ignorance. After all, who has any stats on this? Surveying your customers an excellent idea. Would also be worthwhile knowing some higher-level info, such as how many different shops visited (and where they are).

We are all indeed pedestrians once we are on the Lane.

I'd imagine there are patterns for different types of outlets too. For example, I'd cycle to pick up some wine or a few groceries, or to browse some clothes or housewares, but I'd be unlikely to cycle to go out for the evening, and I wouldn't be picking up a picture frame on my bike.

[PeterW]

There's never going to be any meaningful progress without national efforts to get a lot of people out of their cars. That's going to take more than the good people of East Dulwich, new pedestrian crossing or not.

LL is a vehicle through-route and pretty much all the unpleasantness associated with it is due to the incessant procession of private cars, many carrying one person on a short trip which could just as easily have been done on bus or bike.

Imagine how much more liveable LL - in fact all London - would be if rather than 2% of trips being made by bike it was 25% or so, like in the Netherlands. It's not impossible. The Dutch managed to re-shape their transport priorities in the 60s and 70s. It's a question of political will.

Sadly, the hugely vocal UK car lobby and their cheerleaders in the popular press will stop this. "End this war on the motorist!" they yell, without apparent irony.

[Loz]

Surely Lordship Lane is a successful shopping street precisely because it is a vehicle through area? If you were to divert most traffic through, say, Crystal Palace Road how long would LL last?

[Huguenot]

Well, there are plenty of pedestrianized town centers that thrive, so I don't know that through traffic is the only indicator of how successful a commercial area will be per se.

I guess you need other forms of access, and other ways of promoting it. A cafe culture and safe pedestrian area might be just then thing to attract new customers?

[northlondoner]

PeterW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LL is a vehicle through-route and pretty much all

> the unpleasantness associated with it is due to

> the incessant procession of private cars, many

> carrying one person on a short trip which could

> just as easily have been done on bus or bike.

>

> Imagine how much more liveable LL - in fact all

> London - would be if rather than 2% of trips being

> made by bike it was 25% or so, like in the

> Netherlands. It's not impossible. The Dutch

> managed to re-shape their transport priorities in

> the 60s and 70s. It's a question of political

> will.

>

> Sadly, the hugely vocal UK car lobby and their

> cheerleaders in the popular press will stop this.

> "End this war on the motorist!" they yell, without

> apparent irony.

How on earth can you divine the nature and length of the trips people are making? Are you monitoring their movements?

The evil "car lobby" to which you refer are in fact ordinary people who - God forbid - make a decision about how to transport themselves, their friends and their families. For me , one of the great charms of ED is the fact its possible to pop onto LL and do a bit of shopping/carousing without having to drive or cycle. But I recognise other people may have different needs/desires to me.

Yes London would be a more pleasant place if we all cycled/strolled/went by horseback/skipped holding hands about our business. But it aint going to happen.

[northlondoner]

James Barber Wrote:

---------

> A year ago we had a 3rd zebra crossing added on

> the northern arm

>

> Lordship Lane. Last year we had lots more 'entry

> treatments' on side roads where the road goes up

> to be at level with the pavement. STill a few more

> to go before universal.

>

> A scheme of change to Lordship Lane and Grove Vale

> is again in the pipeline. The one roadblock to

> this going out to public consultation is

These "entry treatments" are generally a bad idea, I think. My mother is blind and finds it hard telling when she is off the pavement and in fact in the middle of the road. Thankfully I am usually with her - but I believe it would be a real problem for someone unaccompanied. Those raised studs on the "curb" don;t do the trick.

Also - and I;ve done this myself - the merger of road and pavement somehow makes folk less vigilant about crossing. I think you actually need a physical reminder that you are going across a road viz an actual step down curb.

Furthermore, because of the downward slope of of the "entry treatment" cars emerging from junctions into LL tend to protrude into the oncoming traffic as they wait for a chance to proceed. That cant be safe. Get rid of them please.

But on the other hand we do need another crossing along the lane. Dont let TfL fob you off.

[Huguenot]

:))

I think those with ambition to give us all a better future would argue that your views make you part of the challenge northlonder - a combination of cyncism and obstinacy with a smattering of denial.

There are many ways to make Lordship Lane more attractive and successful to shopkeepers. One solution may be to make it appeal less to those that jam nearby streets with traffic and parked cars for small price convenience purchases, and appeal more to those who stay longer and spend more, who like pedestrian friendly areas with good bicycle parking and bus access.

In ten years time we won't be able to afford petrol for all these short convenience trips anyway, and the people and businesses who are first to recognise that will be the first to benefit.

[James Barber]

Hi Loz,

Lordship Lane is much more successful now that 10 years ago and Lordship Lane roughly carries ther same amount of traffic. So the through traffic doesn't appear to have revitalised Lordship Lane. Most of the traffic goes through never stopping to shop. Half of all the vehicles moving at any one time in Southwark start and end their journeys outside Southwark. Majority headed into town where free to use business parking makes this possible.

Hi PeterW,

The Dutch invested a lot of money over several decades to encourage and make attractive using bicycles and other public transport. With a little money relatively, London has seen a doubling in cycle use.

[Penguin68]

I don't know whether anyone elese has noticed, but Holland is a notoriously flat place - London on the other hand, and particularly around here isn't. (Notice that almost all the local stations other the the 3 Dulwich stations have 'hill' in their name.)

Once you reach a certain age much of ED and its surrounds becomes quite a struggle - apart from the less than bike-friendly roads we have generally around here.

[northlondoner]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> :))

>

> I think those with ambition to give us all a

> better future would argue that your views make you

> part of the challenge northlonder - a combination

> of cyncism and obstinacy with a smattering of

> denial.

>

Ok - perhaps my response has been a little tart. But the ambition to improve things must include everyone...not just the fit able bodied folk with a passion for cycling - or the time/inclination to do their weekly shop by bus.

So, for instance, the danger posed to blind people crossing these "entry treatments" is so obvious - it ought not to need pointing out. But at the risk of repitition - and this is from personal experience - some visually impaired people wont be able to tell when they;ve left the safety of the pavement and are in the middle of the road.

Hope I'm not cynical - that would be a terrible way to live. I happen to believe that we live in one of the kindest, most civilised areas of London. And things are improving . More can be done to pick up the pace of those improvements .

But let;s not enforce a kind of one-size fits all solution. We don;t all hold the same world view or have the same needs.

Pip pip!

[James Barber]

Entry treatments are a different colour and usually blockwork to give a different pattern. They have nobbly paving to give a tactile reference you're about to cross the road. Blind people are more likely to trip over a regualr kerb which is an issue they don't have with entry treatments.

The highway code makes it clear to give way to pedestrians when enterring a side road.

Cyclsits. Some of my friends are cycling into their late 80's and they cycle over hills. I suspect one of the reasons they are so well is that they have always cycled and make me feel quite inadequate puffing up hills when I'm cycling.

If hills are to much for a cycle walk your bike up them or get better gears.

[louisiana]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't know whether anyone elese has noticed, but

> Holland is a notoriously flat place - London on

> the other hand, and particularly around here

> isn't. (Notice that almost all the local stations

> other the the 3 Dulwich stations have 'hill' in

> their name.)

>

> Once you reach a certain age much of ED and its

> surrounds becomes quite a struggle - apart from

> the less than bike-friendly roads we have

> generally around here.

What age would that be? (I'm on the wrong side of 50 and not a gym bunny at all.)

It's fairly easy to avoid unnecessary hills around here e.g. Dog Kennel Hill can easily be by-passed, and who would want to cycle along that road anyway...

The main problem in the area is Crystal Palace triangle, which is uphill whichever direction you travel from.

[northlondoner]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Entry treatments are a different colour and

> usually blockwork to give a different pattern.

> They have nobbly paving to give a tactile

> reference you're about to cross the road. Blind

> people are more likely to trip over a regualr kerb

> which is an issue they don't have with entry

> treatments.

I am relating a personal experience - cane users can find it difficult to know when the curb ends and the road begins. The raised nobbly bit seems not to be a sufficient indication.

[computedshorty]

Lordship Lane is East Dulwich's oldest street. It is an ancient thoroughfare that significantly predates the late 19th century developments.

Lordship Lane is not a straight Lane it curves and follows the contours to get to the higher ground.

Shops that have become a main part have had to adapt to the existing layout, it is not just a Lane but a major cross roads although not in direct line.

To make a byepass would mean demolition of some buildings, un underpass is unlikely as it is the lower part of the area just above the water table there, an overpass would be unsightly.

My own view would be to use the shops after East Dulwich Grove as retail and general shopping and those between it and Goose Green for non saleable goods shops like Hairdressers, Estate, Agents,and Library.

A new town shopping mall is non descript and if it came here Lordship Lane would loose its individuality as a place of popularty.

[Kraken]

Lee refers to the "complete absence of traffic calming measures on LL". I think this lack is pretty scandalous. Buses and supermarket lorries (and the rest) literally thunder down the road. So far as I'm aware, from the Library down to Goose Green there isn't even a 'your speed...' type sign. In the strip between the zebra crossing at Townley Road and the traffic lights at the top of the hill you take your life in your hands if you want to cross Lordship Lane.

[Penguin68]

What age would that be? (I'm on the wrong side of 50 and not a gym bunny at all.)

Try the wrong side of 60 - and with arthritic knees