A fair society ...

[Mick Mac]

That's why I'm not very successful.

[*Bob*]

I'm head of the Department of Coffee Drinking and Having an Occasional Biscuit

[louisiana]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "can we please get away from this idea that hard

> work and education equate to wealth"

>

> though in fairness it's a damn good start. I'd add

> ability to spot and exploit imbalances in the

> market or at least willingness to partake of a

> lucrative market rather than a depressed one. Oh

> and of course a healthy dose of luck always

> helps.

>

A huge dose of luck, and often a willingness or indeed hunger to do the dirty on others (employees, clients, other firms, whoever), sometimes in spectacular fashion. (I speak from experience, having been involved in running various organisations including my own and other businesses.)

[Brendan]

I?m not of the opinion that you have to be a cunt to succeed. It may be a way to succeed but it isn?t necessity. Some people just like to have an excuse to be a cunt.

[louisiana]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm sorry DJKQ but I think your conviction that

> there is a conspiracy of rich people keeping all

> the money for themselves is hopelessly class war.

There was no conspiracy. What there was, was a pile of actions.

>

> The housing boom took place because we created it,

> and nobody was wise enough to anticipate the

> likely outcome. Not very bright, but there was no

> room of purple faced satans deliberately trying to

> screw the country.

>

The housing boom happened because interest rates were kept low and banks decided to lend ridiculous multiples of incomes, in a range of countries. Sub-prime (and its equivalents elsewhere, and its later incarnations) was very much the consequence of JP Morgan's activities in 'creative products', which every other bank then imitated. People like Demchak, Winters, Hancock, Masters... And then there were of course the ratings agencies that gave those products credibility.

[louisiana]

Another substantial player in the US at least: the churches: many of which promoted property purchase among the (too) poor in their sermons, and a number of which had pastors who, funnily enough, were on the payroll of those sub-prime lenders, on commission. I kind of expect circling sharks in life, but those people had pastors who were not worthy of the name.

[Mick Mac]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm head of the Department of Coffee Drinking and

> Having an Occasional Biscuit

And I'm not really head of tax Bob, but i guess you knew that.

[Huguenot]

People can try and sell you any old rubbbish, it's your choice if you buy it.

It's this desire to blame other people for our own decisions that destins us to repeat the same mistakes over again.

[*Bob*]

I wish you were Head of Tax though, Mick.

I like that idea - a lot.

[Mick Mac]

Yes - a dull job for a dull boy. I get your drift.

[Loz]

I wanna know how *Bob* got to be head of two departments.

[louisiana]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> People can try and sell you any old rubbbish, it's

> your choice if you buy it.

>

> It's this desire to blame other people for our own

> decisions that destins us to repeat the same

> mistakes over again.

Don't know about you, but many many years ago I was subjected to high pressure sales tactics on a non-repayment mortgage (can't remember what they were called). I soon got out of it. But those people were basically shysters who told lies. If even I can have fallen for it (at a young 20-something buying a first home, who worked as an accountant) I'm sure those less well educated would be likely to do the same. Yes, people take their own decisions - but often they are not given the straight facts, and sometimes they are told lies in order for a sale to be achieved. (On the other hand, I'm not a fan at all of the blame culture that has infested so much of life these days.)

[mockney piers]

destin? is that a word, wasnt he a french politician?

As I said before, many people were given poor advice by people with vested interests in doing so.

Only with perfect knowledge can we have perfect decisions, failing that it is not always an abrogation of responsibility to blame someone else at least partially, occasionally it really IS someone else's fault!

Mind you I'm wondering how many people didnt pay attention at school because it sucks man!!!! with their teacher saying, listen up or you may regret it one day. Hard to know I guess.

[SeanMacGabhann]

.

[*Bob*]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes - a dull job for a dull boy. I get your drift.

Not at all - you misconstrue!

And Loz - it's 'the cuts'. I was biscuits, but then biscuits and coffee were merged.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Big Man: ?I invent complex financial instruments which make me and this bank a LOT of money ? I DESERVE my large salary?

Nervous journo: ?Do these instruments require millions of people to take out loans and mortgages??

BM: ?Indeed ? that way they can get the things they want and I get to be rich ? win win!?

NJ: ?I see. But haven?t we been here before where house prices rise to the point where people can?t afford them anymore and evrything collapses in a pile of bad debt??

BM: ?ah but that?s the genius of my cleverness!! These products I have devised ensure that won?t happen this time. In fact, make sure you write this down, lot?s of people will say this so I want credit - ?This Time It?s Different??

NJ: ?Good good ? but if I may? suppose all of these future customers decide not to take the risk and don?t take out the loans. Your, erm, instruments, will be worthless won?t they? In which case why are you a genius and why do you deserve all these bonuses??

BM: ?If people are nervous then we?ll just bombard all media for years with the message. This Time It?s Different. Or Better Do It Now Before You Can?t Afford It Next Year. Basically, it has to work and we?ll continue until it does?

NJ: ?Well, you?re convincing me! Ahahahahahahahahahaha ? ok but let?s scenario-test (that?s a phrase you use isn?t it?) What if the whole thing implodes ? it won?t but let?s just pretend ? who will be to blame??

BM: ?This is the best bit ? if it goes all tits up (and between you and me who knows eh? Wink wink) then governments will give me more money and we can lay the blame at the feet of the idiots who took out loans they shouldn?t have!!!?

NJ: ?You really are a bit of a c*** aren?t you?

[Mick Mac]

Let's try putting at least a fair proportion of the blame at the doors of the US Govt who told the US people that they could all have a home loan even though they have no salary, and then their banks sold their useless loans around the world and our banks picked up the tab.

How the US did not have to front up for this to the rest of the world, I'll never know.

[louisiana]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mick Mac Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Yes - a dull job for a dull boy. I get your

> drift.

>

> Not at all - you misconstrue!

>

>

> And Loz - it's 'the cuts'. I was biscuits, but

> then biscuits and coffee were merged.

Is that like a dunked Rich Tea Biscuit? (kind of floppy and in danger of falling over)

[Jeremy]

Mick Mac, I would go further than that. Banks which bought the CDOs - including UK banks - generated huge demand, ensuring that there was no shortage of lenders willing to lend to sub-prime borrowers. You can also blame financial authorities for allowing banks to take on the exposure, and ratings agencies who got it all so wrong.

The issuer of the instruments has to take a share of the blame, but they're just one link in the chain.

And I don't think ANYONE in the city ever took the attitude that "it's OK, if it all goes wrong, the government will save us". Surprised that anyone who works in the industry (as I think Sean does..) would say that.

[SeanMacGabhann]

tWas but a caricature Jeremy. As I've said elsewhere I don't think the banks are the sole problem in all if this at all. But some people seem too keen to go too far the other way in absolving them completely

And I can't think of any senior person at a financial institution would even think that comment. But i have heard lower traders along those lines. Joshing obviously in that way they do. Ie hiding every grotesque thought under a bit of banter. But I accept your point

[Mick Mac]

gosh you are a wise old owl Sean.

All these people joshing and saying careless things. Oh if only we were young again.

[Mick Mac]

We have been through all of this before jeremy. I said a fair proportion of the blame lies with the US. Of course there were other factors.

but id like to know how much of the bad debt that was found to be in the uk banks originated in the US as compared to their own lending.

Also how much of the debt that was written off by the banks prior to the govt bailout was / is actually worthless. Has any of it since been written up?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Expect *Bob* to be arrested soon for impersonating a Head.

It is well documented in public circles that I am the Chief Quangoist for Chocolate Hobnobs.

[????]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Big Man: ?I invent complex financial instruments

> which make me and this bank a LOT of money ? I

> DESERVE my large salary?

>

> Nervous journo: ?Do these instruments require

> millions of people to take out loans and

> mortgages??

>

> BM: ?Indeed ? that way they can get the things

> they want and I get to be rich ? win win!?

>

> NJ: ?I see. But haven?t we been here before where

> house prices rise to the point where people can?t

> afford them anymore and evrything collapses in a

> pile of bad debt??

>

> BM: ?ah but that?s the genius of my cleverness!!

> These products I have devised ensure that won?t

> happen this time. In fact, make sure you write

> this down, lot?s of people will say this so I

> want credit - ?This Time It?s Different??

>

> NJ: ?Good good ? but if I may? suppose all of

> these future customers decide not to take the risk

> and don?t take out the loans. Your, erm,

> instruments, will be worthless won?t they? In

> which case why are you a genius and why do you

> deserve all these bonuses??

>

> BM: ?If people are nervous then we?ll just bombard

> all media for years with the message. This Time

> It?s Different. Or Better Do It Now Before You

> Can?t Afford It Next Year. Basically, it has to

> work and we?ll continue until it does?

>

> NJ: ?Well, you?re convincing me!

> Ahahahahahahahahahaha ? ok but let?s scenario-test

> (that?s a phrase you use isn?t it?) What if the

> whole thing implodes ? it won?t but let?s just

> pretend ? who will be to blame??

>

> BM: ?This is the best bit ? if it goes all tits up

> (and between you and me who knows eh? Wink wink)

> then governments will give me more money and we

> can lay the blame at the feet of the idiots who

> took out loans they shouldn?t have!!!?

>

> NJ: ?You really are a bit of a c*** aren?t you?

Big scottish man: NO More boom and bust

NJ & Half the EDF: You're a much misunderstood, fundamentally decent man much maligned etc etc etc

[Loz]

louisiana Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> *Bob* Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Mick Mac Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Yes - a dull job for a dull boy. I get your

> > drift.

> >

> > Not at all - you misconstrue!

> >

> >

> > And Loz - it's 'the cuts'. I was biscuits, but

> > then biscuits and coffee were merged.

>

> Is that like a dunked Rich Tea Biscuit? (kind of

> floppy and in danger of falling over)

And with that, I feel I must post the classic.... Lionel Rich-Tea!!

http://celebrityreligion.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/lionel_richtea.jpg