English

[????]

...Englishness?

I quite happily say I'm English rather than British, thought that this was interesting by Ed M.

[Huguenot]

cf. arguments passim about nation vs state.

England is a state defined by geographical boundaries whose principle role is the exploitation of common resources.

A nation is a tribe of people with common values, goals and aspirations typically fabricated by polititcians and built upon fictitious creation myths: be it Alfred the Great or Henry the Eight.

I often find common cause with large groups of other people, those people are almost never defined by geographical boundaries - hence I feel no more strongly about differentiating between being English, British or European. It would be a bit simplistic.

Having said that the British have achieved far more than the English. Under pressure it would make better sense to ally myself with a successful crowd than an ever diminishing empty vessel.

When I see a politcian speaking about the state and claiming to find common cause with a nation, I know he's bright enough to understand the difference and dirty enough to exploit the parochial weakness of a people desperate to belong to something to define an identity.

In short a mountebank.

But then as the Republicans discovered with the working man in the US, turkeys will vote for Christmas is you give them a chance to be blindly and witlessly self righteous about it. 'This turkey farm is free to vote for Christmas if it wants, and we're more likely to do it if an intellectual points out the stupidity of it'.

[silverfox]

Methinks Englishness is probably more a state of mind than an objective fact.

There's many a person born in England (including, as far as I know, Ed Milliband) who can be said to be English but who have very little English blood in their veins. The history of these isles makes the English a very mixed bunch

[katie1997]

Typical Ed Miliband, too little too late...and it was the recent Labour party policies that did (in my opinion) much to contribute towards these feelings and foster divisiveness in the UK.

Expressing one's English identity doesn't seem very English to me but ...(is that because it hasn't needed to be previously?), can understand people questioning national identity with Wales and Scotland having their own Parliaments. The article declines to mention that there is (or there will be) a large 'No' campaign in Scotland too. Not everyone is taken in by Alex Salmond.

[katie1997]

Oh and I always say British first. But in a Scottish accent :))

[DaveR]

"England is a state defined by geographical boundaries whose principle role is the exploitation of common resources.

A nation is a tribe of people with common values, goals and aspirations typically fabricated by polititcians and built upon fictitious creation myths: be it Alfred the Great or Henry the Eight."

This strikes me as utter bollocks, albeit (as always) cloaked in deceptively authoritative language.

And if this is true:

"I often find common cause with large groups of other people, those people are almost never defined by geographical boundaries - hence I feel no more strongly about differentiating between being English, British or European"

I suspect it puts you in a very small minority.

Issues of nationality and identity (to say nothing of ethnicity and that vague thing that people call 'culture') are way too complicated to be dismissed so glibly. For me, the debate about "Englishness" is interesting precisely because it is so elusive (to the English) yet somehow so easy to identify for the purpose of defining your otherness (if you are Scots, or Irish).

I know and feel that I am English rather than Scots, British rather than French, and European rather than Chinese but is doesn't follow from that that I support an English parliament or Scots independence - there are more important economic and political considerations than my own sense of identity, which is perhaps telling in itself.

[Huguenot]

Here you go DaveR - it's a pretty good definition:

"The nation state is a state that self-identifies as deriving its political legitimacy from serving as a sovereign entity for a nation as a sovereign territorial unit. The state is a political and geopolitical entity; the nation is a cultural and/or ethnic entity. The term "nation state" implies that the two geographically coincide. "

There's plenty of books you can buy on the subject, not the least by my anarcho-syndicalist ex-father-in-law Frank Harrison.

The question of Scottish independence is predicated on the basis than Salmond believes he can stoke up enough national fervour about the differences in Scottish personality and culture that it deprives the British state from the legitimacy to govern.

However, Salmond needs to create a state in order to govern, which means that he must see economic benefit and control from the withdrawal.

Problematically, he has been clear that he wants to keep the pound, and as has been highlighted in Europe, fiscal unity requires political unity. Hence he can never have a legitimate Scottish state whilst he keeps the pound.

So what's it really abou then.

I can only assume that since his plans are contradictory and unworkable that he has some other motive - personal gain?

[jumpinjackflash]

Diverting slightly, the 'ethnicity' section on those forms that ask for personal details always get me stumped. My mother is English and my father Egyptian. I was born and raised in England and hold a British passport. I see myself as half English and half Egyptian but if asked, I say I am British - as that is my nationality. However, my 'ethnic origin' is mixed. Or, depending on which form you're filling out, I'm 'OTHER'!

[womanofdulwich]

I teach English as a foreign language- my students sometimes ask me why are we so obsessed with ethnicity. I did not think we were, its just to check/prove we're not racist. Isn't it?

[Huguenot]

In official forms that's exactly what it's there for - to measure whether people are being discriminated against because of their enthnicity

[Loz]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In official forms that's exactly what it's there for - to measure whether people are being

> discriminated against because of their enthnicity

I was always it was under the impression that it was for HR to try and spin the figures to make the 'diversity' numbers look good.

[Huguenot]

Isn't that the same thing?

[Loz]

Not by a long shot.

[Tarot]

English is the new word meaning; A totally repressed race that must not be allowed to rise to its former state as

a nation in case it takes over the world, and gets fed up with people saying its never really existed.L.O.L

Mainly only foreigners make this claim about England,while enjoying English hospitality.

One day it will rise out of the ashes of Europes union dream and will be called ENGLAND again.

Free at last free at last.

[Huguenot]

Eh?

The name England has nothing to do with Europe - either its success or its demise.

England became part of the United Kingdom because of the Act of Union with Scotland, driven by the English

In order to have England as a state once more it would require a reduction in the country, not growth.

This is why democracy doesn't work. Not everyone should have a vote.

[edhistory]

> The name England has nothing to do with Europe

Angles.

John K

[El Pibe]

I think what Hugeuenot was trying to say was that tarot's implication that England subsumed it's identity because of the European project was total nonsense, not the etymology of the term itself.

ie Europe meaning that thing wot is in brussels (and strasbourg and stuff) rather than the landmass 20 miles away stretching up to the Urals and the Med.

[El Pibe]

mind you trying to parse anything out of that absurd fantasist posturing isn't easy.

[Loz]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think what Hugeuenot was trying to say was that

> tarot's implication that England subsumed it's

> identity because of the European project was total

> nonsense, not the etymology of the term itself.

Especially as England long subsumed its identity to the 'United Kingdom' project. But Tarot doesn't seem to worry about that one.

[El Pibe]

That's the least of our worries considering he'd like us to rule the world.

Thinking about it England did a pretty poor job of it on its own, ceasing to be an influential power in the early fifteenth century.

It's pretty easy to argue that we emerged as a world power as a result of the 'United Kingdom' project.

Are we to assume Tarot would like to kickstart the end of European cooperation as a precursor to reclaiming world superpower status by invading Normandy and Aquitaine?

[NomDePlume]

I too am in a quandary about the enigmatic nature of the terms English/British. We are a bastard nation made up historically of several different breeds, creeds and cultures, Our language is of a similar nature and loans it's heritage based on several different tongues, this varied and multi-culturalism has been a legacy of our empire days and ultimately, has ill-defined who we are. not so long ago one would have been considered a yob or social outcast and racist for displaying the red cross of St George! Boundaries move, borders are redefined the fences do come down, expand that thought then surely we are neither English, British or European. Try Earthling if you have to label yourself !!

I am Pink therefore I am spam

[Ridgley]

I class myself as British not English as parents where not born here.

[????]

I guess it's part of 'the Empire' heritage but I think it's a pity that many second and third generation born here Afro-Carribean heritage brits seem to deliberately call themselves just that 'british' , when in my mind they are as English as I am? Any insights on that Ridgley? I do know a few black guys who say they are english but Black british seems far more common.

[El Pibe]

I guess there's still a sort of ethnic identification with English, whereas British is an idea rather than a tribal grouping. A bit like people in the states can feel strongly 'American' whilst still identifying with their favoured heritage.

That said La Piba reckons I'm the most English person she's ever met and you have to go back at least 300 years (in the bits of family that we've mapped) to find English folk.

Ironically of course DNA analysis has shown that all the people from the British Isles are basically one big happy family (ie overwhelmingly meso/neolithic immigrants with a steady stream of foreign influx absorbed over the ensuing 3000 years) meaning the various internal labels are very much cultural/tribal rather than ethnic as such, so perhaps we should all just say if you live here you're a Briton.

[????]

A always feel a bit cheated that all my Grandparets were English, especially given that half of them were eastenders but I do have a bit of Hugenot (GASP) in there.