Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[malumbu]

There may be a cultural thing too. Mates from the Southern Hemisphere were encouraged to do vocational work, which would help them travel the globe.

Perhaps in Polish schools there is a push to get people into the manual trades. I expect many in this country don't want to get their hands dirty. It's not just the lower end as Eastern Europeans are often managers/skilled technicians eg in food and agriculture. Moving from manufacturing to a service economy will have very much influenced recent generations including the expectation that most will go on to higher education (not necessarily a bad thing).

[JohnL]

Long term I guess driverless trucks are the aim of the employers.

Not heard much about that recently.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Sunlit uplands:

[Earl Aelfheah]

According to the latest YouGov poll, only 18% think Brexit is going well.

[malumbu]

And most who voted for it are not bothered.

Going off slightly on tangent seeing the Beeb in Dudley talking with shoppers about Starmer, following his speech at conference, and hearing some say "we love scum" (sorry "we love Boris") without a care about what he stands for and who he really represents. Thanks go to Angela Raynor for coining this new name (Yes, it is not big, or clever, but pleased me).

[JohnL]

Another quote from Boris doing the rounds (although they come back regularly)

"You can't rule out the possibility that beneath the elaborately constructed veneer of a blithering idiot lurks a blithering idiot"

[zerkalo]

Britons think Brexit is going badly, and it's an opinion more people have come to as the year has gone on.

Of course that won't stop some Brexit evangelists to insist otherwise just because the sky has not fallen on our heads just yet.

[Sephiroth]

a lot of brexiters on Question Time last night complaining this isn't what they voted for

Only it is - and when we we have pointed this out many many many times over the last 5 years were told "don't patronise me - I know exactly what I voted for!")

but you can't have all of these competing brexits in peoples heads - because as soon as brexit takes ANY material form, it is unrecognisable to most of those who voted for it "for other reasons"

And in the meantime while they continue with their selfish tantrums, the country and the union take a battering

[malumbu]

I am trying to be the voice of reason on this thread, for example the survey quoted by Zerkalo is hardly a surprise. When asked there will be a loosely equivalent hard core on both sides that say badly, or well (or at the moment they are unsure or neutral on this).

So should I have voted to leave, but think it is not going too well at the moment, do you think that I have changed my mind about leaving? For most absolutely no.

But after watching the PM briefly on the Johnny Marr show this morning. For heavens sake. We had five years to prepare for this, and encourage people to train to become HGV drivers, care workers, hospitality industry etc. And you blame the RHA?

For HGV drivers there will no doubt be a premium that encourages more to go into the trade. I doubt if for hospitality and care, which needed freedom of movement (not that horrible term uncontrolled immigration as the PM has now called it) to keep the NHS, care homes, and coffee shops going.

In time of course I expect that we will get 'controlled immigration' from a number of Asian countries, particularly those with young populations

[Sephiroth]

rest of the world has no problem fingering what the problems are

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/03/only-yourselves-to-blame-uks-shortages-seen-from-abroad

No doubt many who vote leave will wear it as a badge of pride, which, if you stop and think about it - go on, do that - is such a selfish, self-indulgent act, harming others - it is literally unforgivable.

[Alan Medic]

Can anyone plot a path for the UK out of this mess? I can't see one other than slow and painful, for almost everyone.

[KidKruger]

Well it doesn?t start until we rehabilitate a population that hates foreigners and believes dog whistle slogans.

They?re the ones that were used to achieve this.

And they?re still there.

[Sephiroth]

I doubt anyone can plot a path Alan

The end game will be rejoining/aligning SM/CU or some renamed version thereof - either as a rule taker but claiming De Sovrinz, or actually rejoining

Between now and then? God knows how much damage between now and then. I can positively say that people who say "yes it's rough now but stick to the current path and things will sort themselves out in 5-10 years" are severely deluded

we COULD see a collapse in trust in this govt in next year or two, with circumstances so bad opposition will have to get off fence and talk about some form of realignment/rejoin and maybe, maybe we will all put this embarrassing episode behind us (and STILL have to deal with the damage from these years - this is BEST CASE scenario)

or

we could just keep going with a relatively slow but inexorable decline over many years, with people like you and me just drifting away leaving whatever left of UK to implode

or/and

Northern Ireland could literally explode as an issue again - causing the kind of damage we saw for decades

Would I rule out actual, genuine civil war? (regardless of any change of path) - I think it's improbable - but I wouldn't rule it out

But sticking with this Brexit as any path to a successful country? Nope. Underpaid professions who believe Johnson is the path to long term prosperity should look at his track record of promises

[malumbu]

Perhaps a little alarmist, and whilst most of us may agree with the Guardian it doesn't represent the views of the majority in the UK. Always good to look at the Daily Express - hooray the PM has saved the country, hooray hooray. And for many it was that they didn't like foreigners coming over here irrespective of the benefits, and that we could similarly be foreigners working in their country. Yes this is little England stereotyping but still represents how many feel in this country - or at least how easily many were persuaded.

As a foreigner what do you reckon of the overseas reporting on the fuel crisis Cat?

[Sephiroth]

Who mentioned the guardian in my last post?

The guardian link before it merely reporting what other papers are saying

We already know what cat thinks. He will go down with this ship

And you? ?A little alarmist?

How polite after years of predictions called project fear coming true - you go with ?a little alarmist? reading my post.

I?d say a bigger problem than people like cat is people like Malumbu pretending they can ?reason? their way out of this

[malumbu]

You posted an earlier link to what other countries think of us from a guardian article. I thought I was being quite gentle, and in the sake of a discussion always good putting forward counter arguments, which I thought that was what the Lounge was for (unlike some threads on other sections).

I don't think you will find any post I have ever made supporting Brexit, and I am even prepared to tell Cat that he/she is wrong from time to time. But I do listen to some with opposing political views (I also lost friends following the referendum and it has soured relations with some family members.....)

I quite like Barry Gardner MPs views, very pragmatic whilst not believing we should have voted to leave recognising that we did have to. Perhaps if we had all behaved like this we may be in a better position (I thought that it just couldn't happen). Oh no, not with May, Corbyn and Johnson - Dave should have stayed and sorted out the mess.

https://m.facebook.com/BBCQuestionTime/videos/376562203165003/?locale2=en_GB

[Sephiroth]

I'm not sure how "Perhaps a little alarmist, and whilst most of us may agree with the Guardian it doesn't represent the views of the majority in the UK."

marries with "You posted an earlier link to what other countries think of us from a guardian article."

but whatever - you keep on keeping on looking for that gentleman's brexit you think exists out there somewhere

Being polite real world events

It's been 5 years - the mandate for this shitshow has been discharged and not only is it worse than most people proclaimed - it is set to get a lot worse

Barry Gardner is a perfect example of all that is wrong with Labour approach (under Corbyn and Starmer)

pretending a blank cheque referendum could ever ever ever satisfy all the people invested in it - keeps talking about this much better arrangement Labour (or some other "gentleman" approach) could do a better job - all the while ignoring the deranged lunatics in the room who aren't even happy with THIS extreme version of brexit. It's not enough - "MOAR BrexZIT!" is the moan

As ever - I repeat: all of this will only end when the country faces up to the problems caused by the crass decision. At time of writing it appears to still be everyone else's fault (or BREAKING NEWS!!: from the same people who days ago said it was other peoples fault - "actually this was plan all along - this is a necessary step to the trust Brexit and the Promised UK land")

I have zero respect for leavers who still cling to the wreckage 5 years on

But people who claim to have voted remain and yet who today insist "we should make this work somehow" are even worse

[TheCat]

Fark Malumbu....sephiroth thinks you're even worse than people like me!

That's very low indeed.

[Sephiroth]

I?m hoping malumbu isn?t fully paid up to the likes of BG

but yeah. I do think Gardner is worse than a full on leaver

[Alan Medic]

It's all okay lads. We're just transitioning from equilibrium A to equilibrium B, said someone from the Govt. a few days ago. The 'ol HGV crisis is the fault of the haulage industry. Healthcare is your personal responsibility. It's only the Govts' as a last resort. As for the unnecessary slaughtering of pigs, well 'have you ever had a ham sandwich?' was the PM's response in a Ch4 interview.

It seems to me that the latest tactic of the Govt. is to blame everyone else. I wonder how long they will get away with that. When a Radio 4 'Today' host tells the PM to 'stop talking', something must be changing. Waffle may no longer do.

The brightest moment for me recently was reading (and I've no idea if this is true) that the EU are going to offer UK HGV drivers 5 year visas.

[diable rouge]

The blame game worked for Brexit, so if it ain't broke...Johnson's speech stays on course, full of tubthumping rhetoric minus actual policy.

However, I do feel that once things start affecting Joe Public, like the fuel shortage has, then you will see more reaction. Winter of Discontent 2.0 looming...

[JohnL]

I don't really think Javid is suited to Health

https://www.indy100.com/politics/sajid-javid-health-social-care-speech-b1933153

Does he mean we should eat well, drink less and exercise more, or does he mean something else entirely. It sounds like Health Insurance might be coming.

[Sephiroth]

What a whiny remoaner. Always looking for others to sort their problems out

https://bbc.in/3mRgjzR

Presses finger to ear

Oh. She voted for and campaigned for Brexit. And she told remainers to ?get over it?

Well?

Still. At least she isn?t representative of a sector the country relies on to feed them

[Seabag]

Not sure the savy chancellor?s dept made life any easier either. IR135 changes literally changed things for the worse.

We now get this all the time, people can earn more doing less Labour heavy jobs.

https://apple.news/AApt0S1HhQe2andwvjmvwwg

[TheCat]

I tripped over in the street today. Bloody brexit.