Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[TheCat]

This taught me everything about the papers when I came to this country. I see no reason to veer away from this....

unfort The Express doesnt make the cut.....

[Spartacus]

It has raised a question for me

With the onslaught of news via the internet, do people still buy and can be categorized as a certain paper reader or are they also getting their news, information and influences from a number of sources including social misinformation media ?

[TheCat]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It has raised a question for me

>

> With the onslaught of news via the internet, do

> people still buy and can be categorized as a

> certain paper reader or are they also getting

> their news, information and influences from a

> number of sources including social misinformation

> media ?

For me the answer is uncatagorically..yes....and the rise of the internet means that people naturally find news sources already in aligntment with their own views and biases. So while previoulsy one may have read a paper which 'leaned' one way or the other, the intenet has turned 'leaning' into full on toppling over and has accelerated partisan views on either side of any debate you care to name. Hence why public discource is so divided and acrimonious....as one can always find a third party news story to support an existing view, making it much easier to feel validated and smug that one is 'right'.....there's no need to be challenged with pesky alternative views, you can just close the browser....

We're all guilty of this..some on occasion..some more often than not!

[JohnL]

All the more ammunition for a PR type of election where the sides have to come together and negotiate rather than pandering to their part of the electorate.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Not sure the "PR is magic" argument holds much water. We have PR on the UK already: it's led to long term single party government in Wales and Scotland, and a total failure to form government in Norn Iron!

[TheCat]

Well off thread topic here....but have never understood why the Preferential Voting system (also called 'Alternative Vote') doesnt get more attention in the UK...people seem to either talk about FPTP or proportional representation.....

Having lived with with pref voting in Australia, I cant recall anyone really moaning about its outcomes....seems like a fair and sensible system to me...as doesnt rely on parties reaching a consensus/coalition...there is always one winner in each seat...but it should be the least objectionable person to the majority of voters in that seat, even if not all of their first choice...

For reference if not familiar....

Alternative Vote (AV)

Voters rank candidates in order of preference by marking 1, 2, 3 and so on.

First preference votes are counted first. If a candidate receives more than 50 per cent of the first preference votes then they are elected.

If no candidate reaches 50 per cent, the candidate with the fewest first preference votes is eliminated. Their second preference votes are reallocated to the remaining candidates. If one candidate has more votes than the other remaining candidates put together, that candidate is elected.

If not, the process is repeated until one candidate has more votes than the other remaining candidates put together. This candidate wins the election.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Problem with STV is you end up with novelty parties like Australian Motorists Party, Hunters and Shooters Party, Animal Lovers Party getting elected because people "throw away" their second preferences to the fringes, and the preference votes can be traded. Most people only really have one preference when it comes to politics. The effect is probably compounded by mandatory voting in Australia. But no system is perfect.

[TheCat]

My understanding is that STV is different to AV....but. Could be wrong.

Those are very unusual events that those novelty parties win a random seat, and never such that they actually matter.

Just anecdotally, I think most people take at least their first 2-3 preferences pretty seriously. I would think all those in favour of a 'progressive alliance' in the UK would do the same....

But as you say, no system's perfect.

[JohnL]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not sure the "PR is magic" argument holds much

> water. We have PR on the UK already: it's led to

> long term single party government in Wales and

> Scotland, and a total failure to form government

> in Norn Iron!

Actually Wales had a Plaid-Labour coalition for a few years (not sure many outside Wales noticed)

And it almost became a Lib-Con-Plaid coalition too.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/what-plaid-achieved-partner-labour-21864617

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Yes, to be fair, it looks like about 8 years out of the last 22 have had coalitions in Welsh government (with Labour as the dominant partner), with the whole rest as Labour single party government.

[Sephiroth]

Dom is at it again

? @Timworrall brexit will be beautiful and in 10-15 yrs when eurozone is nightmare you'll be telling people in the pub you were a vote leave volunteer?

Imagine being on same side as that guy. Proper a-grade schmuck in his underpants, bigging up crypto

[TheCat]

Imagine being on the same side as Hollie....

[Sephiroth]

Not even remotely comparable

[j.a.]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Imagine being on the same side as Hollie....

>

>

Imagine being on the same side as Farage, Tice, Widdecombe, Moylan, Liddle, Mummery and the entire editorial staff of the Telegraph?

Both sides have some dubious elements, that?s a blame game which will go to sunrise and beyond.

[TheCat]

j.a. Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Imagine being on the same side as Hollie....

> >

> >

>

> Imagine being on the same side as Farage, Tice,

> Widdecombe, Moylan, Liddle, Mummery and the entire

> editorial staff of the Telegraph?

>

> Both sides have some dubious elements, that?s a

> blame game which will go to sunrise and beyond.

100percent agreed. That was the point I was making, as Seph constantly refers to 'being on the same side' as some dodgy individuals, like its an actual argument.

[Sephiroth]

Plucking some random 5 year old video of a kooky remainer versus the ramblings of one of the main architects of this catastromess from a few days ago are very very different things

If you still make the same arguments as Cummings does now at the end of 2021(our glorious future is just 10 15 years away!) then you should be asking yourself some serious questions. I know you won?t.

[diable rouge]

Cat likes to paint himself as a reasoned thinker, that before the referendum he was open minded as to which way to vote, so went away and looked into both sides' arguments in great detail.

Then concluded that it would indeed be tough leaving the EU but at least it enabled 'policy change'.

Then proceeded to bet the house on nothing more than the presumption that a competent Gov would come along and save the day, and yes, he cited a 10-year plan.

Not forgetting his subsequent support for No Deal.

Reasoned thinker my arse...

[Sephiroth]

The remainer in that video from 5 years ago has done literally no harm

Cummings, and hardcore leave believers have done untold damage. And yet they will get to say ?10 years time?. And when 10 years pass and we are in dire straits, they will blame implementation or bad governance and shrug

Ive said before. But it?s an unforgivable position to hold in 2021

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Cat likes to paint himself as a reasoned thinker,

> that before the referendum he was open minded as

> to which way to vote, so went away and looked into

> both sides' arguments in great detail.

>

> Then concluded that it would indeed be tough

> leaving the EU but at least it enabled 'policy

> change'.

>

> Then proceeded to bet the house on nothing more

> than the presumption that a competent Gov would

> come along and save the day, and yes, he cited a

> 10-year plan.

>

> Not forgetting his subsequent support for No Deal.

>

>

> Reasoned thinker my arse...

Imagine being on the same side as Diable Rouge....

[diable rouge]

There's that reasoned thinking again...

[Sephiroth]

I?m happy to be on same side as Diablo rouge

Again, he hasn?t taken his country down a uniquely awful path, damaging it reputationaly and economically for generations. All he has done is call you out on your nonsense

Do you see? Not The Same Thing At All

[diable rouge]

Again, he hasn?t taken his country down a uniquely awful path, damaging it reputationaly...

Well, there were those 'away days' in the 80's to be taken into consideration, Sergio Tacchini has a lot to answer for...

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

It's all getting a bit personal on here. Let's discuss the issues, not each other.

[TheCat]

As if to confirm why the UK left the EU, the new coalition Government in Germany has promised to advance a constitutional process "leading ultimately to a European Federal State". Ignoring opposition from Poland, Hungary and indeed the majority of parties in France, the Coalition says 'time is calling for it' and 'people are waiting for it'.

What 'people' they are referring to is quite unclear....

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Your second sentence explains why the first sentence won't happen.