Vaccine wars

[TheCat]

I'm pretty sure people have been talking about the EU vaccination procurement failures for the past couple of months DR. I can recall posting about it myself on here before Xmas only to have it dismissed. In fact, the 'we are fortunate' thread started by trinny was specifically all about it. So my comment wasn't focussed on people who haven't posted for a day or a week, and until your comment above, I can't recall much in the way of acknowledgment that the EU have stuffed up.

But anyway...I totally agree with Spartacus and yourself, that global coordination is vital. But different government have made different decisions, and they have ramifications, serious ramifications. We should recognise where good and bad decisions have been made - at least as a means of learning from them if nothing else.

The vaccine taskforce (which was setup on boris's direction and has been successful thus far) actually has multiple overarching goals - it would seek, first, full protection for UK citizens; second, international cooperation to provide vaccines for people in poorer countries everywhere; third, an infrastructure against future pandemics. They seems like reasonable, and we'll formed goals to me, with an eye on global co-operation

Sure, the sentiment of the EU's goals in the common vaccination scheme are to be similarly applauded. The implementation? Not so much. While you rightly raise the point that we need global solutions, why should we gloss over the fact that this situation is a very tangible rationale for why some people might have supported Leaving the EU? They are two separate issues.

The need for global solutions does not diminish the lethargy and incompetence of the EU on this specific issue, just as the success of the UK govt on this specific issue does not diminish the mis-steps they have made in other areas.

[Seabag]

This vaccine ?race? has been politicised from the off

Britain passed vaccine approval

=Britain is first

=Britain is beating its European neighbours

=Brexit is a success

In theory we should wait until everyone has the same chances, then go to it collectively. But what?s stopping that?

[Sephiroth]

There is a lot to unpick over the last few days with a lot of people rushing to judgements that I don't feel comfortable with at all

What is undeniably true is that the EC has had a nightmare and cocked up royally - not just in one heated day's exchange, but over several days of escalating tensions. They didn't just not think to consult Ireland and UK but left people like Barnier blindsided as well - he was reportedly furious and rightly so, as should all the parties involved.

Plus the UK govt deserves credit for at no point pouring oil on troubled waters, despite been given multiple opportunities to do so. I would love to know who was the wise head providing that counsel

Of course all of this wouldn't be an issue were it not for the problems presented by Brexit and specifically NI itself. Or if AZ had managed it's client rather better. Has the UK vaccine strategy been far superior to the EC's? Unquestionably so far. But I do think the EC is right to be aggrieved at the way they have invested in and been treated by AZ (others will argue the reverse is equally valid)

But despite Cat's comments, it seemed pretty clear all day yesterday that Remainers everywhere were appalled and as likely to complain about the commissions actions - maybe not on here (as DR mentions, I haven't posted for a while because... reasons)

Ultimately it's been a clusterfuck which the EU and the commission needs to own - but having made such a blunder it's equally heartening to see that once calls form member states started to make their position known, the retraction and reversal was pretty swift. It left damage behind - but it didn't double down when it (eventually) became clear what the problem ahead was

Equally clear after this episode is that this won't be a one off. Brexit means UK and EU are rivals - that's the point - and whilst vaccines and pandemic mean emotions run higher than usual and the stakes are global - there will be a point in the near future when those are less of an issue and something trade related will flare up.

And whilst I blame the EC for this episode , and praise the UK in it's response this time - I caught a glimpse of something from the usual suspects (UK press, online opinion makers and others) that has left me more uncomfortable about brexit than even I was before

[diable rouge]

I thought trinny's thread was about the UK not being able to procure a vaccine early had we still been in the EU, which I know I didn't agree with as there's contingency to do so within EU rules, which Hungary followed. Meanwhile Germany seems to be filling it's boots...https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-buys-extra-coronavirus-vaccine-doses-from-eu-countries/

Anyways, I think this is a pretty good quick appraisee of things from David Henig, a trade expert...

The usual reminder to annoy partisans that more than one thing can be true at a time. AstraZeneca can have failed to deliver, the Commission handle it badly and panic, the EU still not be on the verge of collapse, the UK successful on vaccines, and still not guaranteed success.

[TheCat]

I might quibble on a few little things you said above, But overall, you're right there is much to unpick, and overall, I think that a reasonable and balanced comment Sephiroth.

[Seabag]

.

[Spartacus]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> .

Good point 😆

[JohnL]

Wheres the pragmatism in the press. Boris to be fair to him seems to have agreed with UVdL that vaccines should cross borders which to me means UK gets some from Belgium (and others) and EU gets some from UK - but somehow (just my dark suspicions of this government) I suspect our government has done a deal with AZ at some point and NDAs will stop us ever knowing what.

How Ireland got into it - a stupid chess move from the EU commission unless they're playing 10 moves ahead :)

[Hamletter]

TheCat Wrote:

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> The government have got many things wrong, I don't

> think there's many people who would dispute that.

> Can we not just acknowledge and celebrate

> something they have done right?

Spot on Cat. These remoaners need to look for the positives and I bet none of them would opt to defer getting their jabs so that the EU could decide who should get it instead.

[Sephiroth]

"I bet none of them would opt to defer getting their jabs so that the EU could decide who should get it instead."

well that isn't true - I for one would prefer a uniform rollout and despite being 50+ would happily forgo by jab for a wider benefit

and I don't watch it, but I believe this week's question time answered the same question in much the same way?

[Hamletter]

malumbu Wrote:

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> Not sure if articles quoting the WHO on vaccine

> hoarding have been discussed yet. Quoting briefly

> from one:

> https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2021/01/29/

> who-vaccine-hoarding-would-be-a-catastrophic-moral

> -failure-that-keeps-pandemic-burning/?sh=558ebb201

> 5ac

>

> During a virtual briefing Friday, Tedros Adhanom

> Ghebreyesus, the WHO director-general, said that

> vaccine hoarding would not only be a "catastrophic

> moral failure," but that it would keep "the

> pandemic burning" and would result in a "very

> slow" global economic recovery.

>

Sadly, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus is totally discredited because he took China's shilling. They pushed for him big time to become head of WHO and he dithered whilst deflecting blame away China. The spouted support of China when they were patently trying to run a cover-up.

[JohnL]

Hamletter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The government have got many things wrong, I

> don't

> > think there's many people who would dispute

> that.

> > Can we not just acknowledge and celebrate

> > something they have done right?

>

> Spot on Cat. These remoaners need to look for the

> positives and I bet none of them would opt to

> defer getting their jabs so that the EU could

> decide who should get it instead.

The WHO (WHO spokeswoman Margaret Harris) has said once the top 9 groups are vaccinated the UK should share all vaccines to enable those groups to be vaccinated in every other country especially the poor. I'd be OK to defer if it was necessary (although I'm group 8 - 55 and over ... just)

Can only find it in Arab News :)

https://www.arabnews.com/node/1800976/world

"In her appeal, Harris told the BBC: ?We?re asking countries, once you?ve got those high-risk and healthcare worke"r groups, please ensure that the supply you?ve got access to is provided for others. While that?s morally the right thing to do, it?s also economically the right thing to do.?

She added: ?There?ve been a number of very interesting analyses showing that just vaccinating your own country and then sitting there and saying ?we?re fine? won?t work economically. That phrase ?no man is an island? applies economically as well ? Unless we get all societies working effectively once again, every society will be financially affected.?

"

[JohnL]

Oh Yes and at least one of SAGE tends to agree we need to get the vulnerable in all countries vaccinated first...

"One member of the UK government?s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies, Jeremy Farrar, warned that vaccinating ?a lot of people in a few countries, leaving the virus unchecked in large parts of the world, will lead to more variants emerging.?"

[KidKruger]

Well one certainly would have to look pretty hard for the positives.

Do you actually know of any of these positives yourself ?

Could you list just 5 of them please ?

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

Hamletter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The government have got many things wrong, I

> don't

> > think there's many people who would dispute

> that.

> > Can we not just acknowledge and celebrate

> > something they have done right?

>

> Spot on Cat. These remoaners need to look for the

> positives and I bet none of them would opt to

> defer getting their jabs so that the EU could

> decide who should get it instead.

[Hamletter]

OK, I'll fill in your blanks for you

1. Vaccines were developed in record time

2. These vaccines have excellent efficacy - much better than the 'flu jab.

3. The UK invested massively in vaccine production production

4. The UK fast tracked approval for vaccines

5. The UK has approved more types than any other country

5. 8 million UK residents have been vaccinated so far

6. 480,000 vaccinated yesterday alone

7. UK vaccination rate betters all other countries apart from UAE and Israel.

8. The vaccines can be tweaked quickly to work against new variants.

Oh, and one more...

9. If you are reading this then you are still alive. That's a real winner!

I could go on

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well one certainly would have to look pretty hard

> for the positives.

> Do you actually know of any of these positives

> yourself ?

> Could you list just 5 of them please ?

> 1.

> 2.

> 3.

> 4.

> 5.

>

>

> Hamletter Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > Spot on Cat. These remoaners need to look for

> the

> > positives and I bet none of them would opt to

> > defer getting their jabs so that the EU could

> > decide who should get it instead.

[Hamletter]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There is a lot to unpick over the last few days

> with a lot of people rushing to judgements that I

> don't feel comfortable with at all

>

> What is undeniably true is that the EC has had a

> nightmare and cocked up royally - not just in one

> heated day's exchange, but over several days of

> escalating tensions.

The EU cock-up with vaccines goes further back with Macron's attempt to influence Brussels into placing the bulk of the EU ordering in favour of the Sanofi vaccine. Sanofi encountered delay after delay and consequently the EU was way behind the field when it came to securing contracts with firm delivery commitments.

And where is is the Sanofi vaccine now. It's nowhere. it didnt work and it has been ditched.

The EU has only itself to blame and that's why it's lashing out.

And it proved again that France and Germany pull all the string in the EU and the smaller members dont have any influence.

[JohnL]

Hamletter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 9. If you are reading this then you are still

> alive. That's a real winner!

>

> I could go on

That's a strange one and a very low bar of success especially as the dead can't reply to this comment and if I was dead I wouldn't be that bothered about it. The families of the dead are those suffering.

[JohnL]

Hamletter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And it proved again that France and Germany pull

> all the string in the EU and the smaller members

> dont have any influence.

The UK was the counterbalance.

Sanofi are throwing in there lot with more successful vaccines - like helping each other and sharing as society should do.

[Sephiroth]

TrinnyDad is back I see

[SpringTime]

Hamletter, in point 7 I think you forgot Malta. Not a big country but just saying ;-)

I think vaccine investment and acquistion, production and rollout in the UK has been hugely impressive, even in spite of the overwhelming need. To make things stick there's no point in stopping here - if even small and remote parts of the world remain without inoculation then new variants can arise and spread, so undermining the whole effort. That's perhaps back to square one or worse.

(North Sentinel Island will need some thinking, of course.)

[Hamletter]

Not forgetting Monaca and Cyprus also.

[Hamletter]

Sephiroth Wrote:

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> TrinnyDad is back I see

Is he/she your nemesis or it is a case of paranoia?

[JohnL]

Looks like the UK government is going along with the WHO suggestion to sharevaccines once the 9 groups are done.

"Generosity and cross-border cooperation were the themes of the day on Sunday"

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/liz-truss-uk-will-give-spare-coronavirus-vaccines-to-other-countries-once-it-hits-its-roll-out-targets

[JohnL]

"This morning Blair confirmed numerous recent reports that he had been advising ministers on their pandemic response, telling Ridge: ?Yes of course I speak to people in government?."

Some people will not like that.

[SpringTime]

Speaking to them is fine. Lots of people do this. Speaking for them is another thing.