Air pollution in East Dulwich - what can we do?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Here?s some more info on causes of London?s air pollution. Again, suggests vehicles are a major contributor https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/21944

[Earl Aelfheah]

@Glemham - totally agree re. underground parking. Seems crazy to me that the planning system should be encouraging car ownership in London.

[Penguin68]

Road vehicles are the single biggest cause of London's air pollution...

However this doesn't mean that private cars are the single biggest cause...etc. Road vehicles include buses, lorries, vans etc. etc. - most of which are diesel (whereas the majority of private vehicles aren't.

Don't use statistics driven substantially by commercial vehicles to beat private motorists around the head.

[Spartacus]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Here?s some more info on causes of London?s air

> pollution. Again, suggests vehicles are a major

> contributor

> https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fi

> d/21944

To be honest , vehicles are just tools used by humans and the biggest contribution to poor air quality is humans.

Whilst it's not politically correct, maybe these discussions should be focusing on reducing the population which would result in bigger environmental gains.

Reduced number of cars, no flying on holiday,

Growing what we needed eat so less use of bogs and woodlands for food, reduced demands on diminishing resources and metals (iron... ) and less carbon dioxide pumped out by our lungs....

No one is going to promote reducing population (for example by birth control) and with China raising the family limit to 3 children, us reducing green house gasses is like peeing in the wind.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Road vehicles are the single biggest cause of

> London's air pollution...

>

> However this doesn't mean that private cars are

> the single biggest cause...etc. Road vehicles

> include buses, lorries, vans etc. etc. - most of

> which are diesel (whereas the majority of private

> vehicles aren't.

>

> Don't use statistics driven substantially by

> commercial vehicles to beat private motorists

> around the head.

Wasn't trying to beat anyone round the head, I'm a private motorist myself. You're right about that including commercial vehicles.

[Rockets]

Rahx3 - the report you link to demonstrates how you cannot narrow the focus to just cars and that the problem is far greater than that - and actually those that do focus solely on cars probably do so due to their own confirmation bias (and I do include TFL in that).

Look at what the report says:

Firstly.....

Research has shown that around 75 per cent of particulate matter pollution in Greater London

is estimated to come from outside the city.

And then the graphs show that in terms of NO2 and PM3.

Look at NO2:

Road Transport - 50%

But within 50% that the worst offender is the diesel car with 24%

After that the TFL bus fleet is the next largest contributor at 20%

Then Rigid HGVs at 15%

Van and mini bus 12%

Petrol car 12%

Outside of the 50% for road transport...

Domestic Gas - 12%

Commercial gas -8%

Industry 7%

So the continued use of domestic gas is as damaging as the use of the petrol car.

And then when you look at PM3 sources:

53% comes from road transport....

..of which taxis are the biggest contributor - 26%

Van and mini bus - 17%

Diesel car and petrol car on 14% each

TFL bus fleet - 13%

etc etc....

So you can see that we need to tackle this holistically and need to stop making it a war against the car as it is far bigger than that and the way councils, and the lobby groups, try to focus solely on private car use is a folly and actually diverts attention from the wider issues. And maybe, just maybe, for groups like TFL focusing on the car deflects attention away from their role in the problems as those charts show (and I appreciate they are from 2013) that TFL has oversight on a big part of the problem - the bus fleet and taxis.

If we don't approach this with a clear-eye view of everything going on (domestic gas use, transport etc etc) you will never crack the problem.

[Earl Aelfheah]

@Rockets - totally agree. I wasn't suggesting that we narrow the focus to just cars.

I'm definitely not suggesting that we start a 'war on motorists' either. I'm a motorist.

[Rockets]

Rahx3 - apologies, I wasn't accusing you of focussing just on cars - it was more of a general observation. The war-on-cars seems to be waged by (self) interest groups and councils (who give too much weight to said (self) nterest groups) whilst seemingly deliberately ignoring the macro issues - probably no doubt because they have gas fired boilers etc! ;-)

[malumbu]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> To be honest , vehicles are just tools used by humans and the biggest contribution to poor air

quality is humans.

>

Whilst it's not politically correct, maybe these discussions should be focusing on reducing the

population which would result in bigger environmental gains.

>

Reduced number of cars, no flying on holiday, Growing what we needed eat so less use of bogs and

> woodlands for food, reduced demands on diminishing resources and metals (iron... ) and less carbon

> dioxide pumped out by our lungs....

>

> No one is going to promote reducing population for example by birth control) and with China raising the family limit to 3 children, us reducing green house gasses is like peeing in the wind.

Fair point - and I've made this point about living sustainably on this or another thread - there are so many on similar themes I've lost track. This will include having kids and how many. Although in the great scheme of things no point in the UK going alone.

We've got a relatively low birth rate, but as with France we are an aging population without the young to look after us. So we get people from countries with higher birth rates and lower average age to do this for us (care homes, NHS as the like) - although Brexit has made this a bit more difficult (Eastern Europeans). The alternative is to have isolated older people looked after by robots (the way Japan is going). Sorry incredibly off thread.

In terms of emissions we have cut total NOx and PM from transport hence other sources have become more relevant eg wood burners. There is often confusion between 'road side' and total emissions, as for many large sources much of the pollution is very dispersed by the time it gets to us. Rocks has the correct reference, ie the source of pollution in hot spots.

But going back to my big issue - climate change - the UK set progressively tough limits on carbon emissions from different sectors and the performance of the transport sector is woeful. The EU set progressively tighter new car average CO2 on manufacturers which we are still signed up to (one way or another) but that doesn't seem to have the desired effect to date.

Sorry I am a bit of an anorak.

[Spartacus]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Spartacus Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> >

> > To be honest , vehicles are just tools used by

> humans and the biggest contribution to poor air

> quality is humans.

> >

> Whilst it's not politically correct, maybe these

> discussions should be focusing on reducing the

> population which would result in bigger

> environmental gains.

> >

> Reduced number of cars, no flying on holiday,

> Growing what we needed eat so less use of bogs

> and

> > woodlands for food, reduced demands on

> diminishing resources and metals (iron... ) and

> less carbon

> > dioxide pumped out by our lungs....

> >

> > No one is going to promote reducing population

> for example by birth control) and with China

> raising the family limit to 3 children, us

> reducing green house gasses is like peeing in the

> wind.

>

>

> We've got a relatively low birth rate, but as with

> France we are an aging population without the

> young to look after us. So we get people from

> countries with higher birth rates and lower

> average age to do this for us (care homes, NHS as

> the like) - although Brexit has made this a bit

> more difficult (Eastern Europeans). The

> alternative is to have isolated older people

> looked after by robots (the way Japan is going).

> Sorry incredibly off thread.

>

>

> Sorry I am a bit of an anorak.

Are you advocating we live in "the city of domes" till we're 30 and get to go on "Carrousel" ?

Oh lordy hope you're not Jessica 6

[ianr]

Spartacus wrote:

> Are you advocating we live in

> "the city of domes" till we're 30

> and get to go on "Carrousel" ?

>

> Oh lordy hope you're not Jessica 6

I don't recognise a single one of those references.

[Spartacus]

ianr Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Spartacus wrote:

>

> > Are you advocating we live in

> > "the city of domes" till we're 30

> > and get to go on "Carrousel" ?

> >

> > Oh lordy hope you're not Jessica 6

>

> I don't recognise a single one of those

> references.

You're obviously not the old man that Logan 5 met and your crystal hasn't turned red otherwise you would have spotted the references to "Logan's Run" (it was released in 1976 so over 30 years ago)

[Siduhe]

Now I feel old....

"Renew, Renew"

[legalalien]

Loved that show. Friday after school, hated piano lesson, fish and chips, a glass of full fat milk and LR.

[Spartacus]

Siduhe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Now I feel old....

>

> "Renew, Renew"

Is this sanctuary Siduhe

[tomszekeres]

-- moved topic --

[malumbu]

Welcome to the Lounge - the best place for wider debate

[malumbu]

I seem to be the kiss of death on many threads. But seriously, there is still plenty to discuss here. Jeremy Vine yesterday had a phone in about air pollution - there was some good points on deliveries but particularly the amount of extra traffic due to construction. Edmund King (AA) always speaks well/balanced

It's towards the end of the programme:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000x0fj